Why all the distrust?
[Please note this article was written in 2007 -- see other articles in the Skeptic's Library (on the right) for more updated and in-depth analysis]
1) One piece of aired evidence has been proven to have been doctored, although not necessarily by TAPS themselves. Still, how can we trust what we see if they permit their post-production company to fake footage without putting the word DRAMATIZATION on the screen?
2) There is a lot of suspicious footage, such as the shot which doesn't QUITE show Grant pulling on the lamp cord, but also doesn't quite line up with their "paranormal" declaration of the moving lamp. The moment there is a reasonable hypothesis how a piece of evidence could have been faked, and that explanation is entirely plausible given all the details (where the cameras were placed, how accessible the location was, etc) it should be discarded.
3) Consistently poor debunking jobs, despite their declaration that they go into a location attempting to disprove a haunting. From Grant's reaction to Tango's discovery on the Queen Mary (that the bed unmaking itself was hoaxed by someone messing with the video camera) we can see he was NOT keen on having that footage debunked. Were Tango not on the team it's likely that footage would have aired and been labeled paranormal evidence. And watching Brian fail to run in a straight line along a handrail simply because it was dark (season 1 at ESP, trying to "debunk" the apparition footage) was hardly a strong attempt at recreating the footage.
4) Experiments aren't properly controlled and equipment is misused. Steve was in a room at the Stanley Hotel with the window open and the wind blowing in through the curtains, trying to see if the bed shook or if anything touched him or if he heard anything. SHUT THE WINDOW FIRST! In another episode, Brian can be see pointing an IR thermometer (which reads SURFACE temperatures of what it is aimed at, not ambient temperature) in the direction of Donna and then at the wall behind her (while looking at the screen, not seeing what he was pointing at) and declared that the temperature dropped from 90 something to 60 something. D'ya think?
1 + 2 +3 + 4 = We cannot trust that we are being shown original, unaltered, unhoaxed footage when watching the show. We cannot trust that they are even competent at using their own equipment or drawing reasonable conclusions supported with facts.
So, while Jason and Grant might very well not "knowingly" put anything fake out there, it would seem there are still plenty of reasons for us to be cautious about what we're seeing on the show.
Comments on Why all the distrust?
mark @ 12:21 am
No one has posted here so i would like to be the first and kinda get the ball rolling. In paragraph 4 of Logisti's above comments on the ir thermometer, he is right, why are they using these things to measure ambient temperature, they dont. They measure what you are pointing at directly, i am in the automotive field and use these. They need to stop doing this! This does makes the investigators look less than competent as Logisti pointed out.
I started watching the show about 2 months ago and thought it was very cool. Then started doing research and found this great website. I am so glad i did and will try to add my two cents worth when appropriate. Maybe we will get someones attention!
I was a big fan of X-files and what did Mulder always say? "the truth is out there", well i think that it was we deserve and have a right to!
I mentioned in another post about the lack of control or direction in there experiments, so i agree with Logisti on this issue also. They need to clean up a lot of stuff and the way they do things and dont be so quick in some areas. This is some extremely heavy stuff they are dealing with and should treat it with more respect! That its for now, thank you for the honor and pleasure to post here!
Logisti @ 12:10 pm
sneaker98, you don't make any sense. I haven't made any claims other than there has been a lot of evidence put forth by TAPS which is questionable for reasons x, y and z, all of which you can personally verify. If this offends you in some religious way then please do whatever you need to do to keep your faith but what you're saying is basically, "You don't believe TAPS so I'm not going to believe you and therefore I believe TAPS" which is essentially a pretend-logic way of saying, "I believe TAPS no matter what".
…and you are free to believe TAPS no matter what. I'm not stopping you. Still, pretty much everything I say can be independantly verified, so there is nothing to doubt except perhaps my conclusions if you think a particular piece of evidence cited by me isn't "substantial" then again, you're entitled to your opinion. Just do everyone a favor and quit with the "you don't give TAPS the benefit of the doubt" thing because A) I do. If I didn't this site would consist of one picture: Grant sitting next to the pulled-tight lamp cord, followed by a caption condemning TAPS as a bunch of frauds. B) You can doubt me all you want, it still doesn't make the evidence presented by TAPS any more credible or less doubtful.
Logisti @ 9:19 am
Yes, nearly all of this is opinion. No one claimed otherwise. I think the Manson FLIR footage is the only "hard proof" on the site at the moment. If you don't like my opinions or think they're well-reasoned and accurate, then I'm afraid you're on the wrong website.
Allow me to address your points one-by-one since you seem to think this is an argument that one of us actually has a chance of winning (it's not).
1) Those audio stingers they play during the show disgust me. Not only are they distracting but they outright prevent the audience from hearing what the TAPS team is hearing sometimes and whoever is in charge of editing them in consistently over-does it as if they're mocking a Ghost Hunting show rather than working on one. That's my opinion on the sounds.
2) Circumstantial evidence — yeah, and? What's your point? I never "convicted" anyone in the court of public opinion (or even my own). I just said there was a bunch of stuff that seemed suspicious. Is circumstantial evidence no longer good reason for suspicion?
3) Look, there are only two possibilities about the debunking: Either myself and half the people I talk to could do a better job at it, or they're deliberately editing it to make TAPS look incompetent. I'm not sure what else you want me to say. In last night's interview Jason & Grant pretty much admitted that without Tango they would have certified the Queen Mary video as amazing evidence of the paranormal. Are you going to get upset with Jason & Grant now?
4) Again you're missing the point: The point isn't the specific incidents I mention, it's that there is a pattern of poor investigative technique that simply should *not* happen unless the people involved are either idiots or simply don't take their investigation seriously.
In closing: Yes, these are my *opinions* — and as always you are entitled to your own.
Logisti @ 11:49 pm
sneaker98, I think you and I aren't as diametrically opposed as you seem to think. I'm not trying to make any case against TAPS honesty, I'm just saying that the circumstantial evidence raises legitimate questions — I never suggested it offered definitive answers to those questions.
As for the mistakes not being used as evidence, sometimes it's not but sometimes it is. Forget about the doctored FLIR footage from the Manson episode and just watch how they actually investigated during that scene. Jason is *finally* using the ambient attachment for the IR thermometer so he is actually measuring the ambient temperature fairly close to Chris Fleming (as he should).
Everything was fine and dandy until Grant decided to "confirm" Jay's temperature readings with the FLIR — and the FLIR only measures surface temperatures and it's centered on the wall several feel *behind* Fleming so it's not even reading the temperature *anywhere near* where Jay is reading.
Now, the FLIR wasn't shown during the reveal so far as we know but the intention was to collect evidence and he was completely misusing the instrument. If you want to say it doesn't count because it wasn't shown to the client I think that's nitpicking but even so, when you misuse your equipment that badly that often — and since we don't see them collecting every piece of evidence they show every client — how much confidence can we really have that they've never shown a client a piece of evidence that was improperly collected?
Wally @ 2:04 pm
First, I love the show! And I watch it religiously every week.
There are things in their episodes that bother me. Let me mention three:
The "short, running ghost" at Eastern State Penitentiary. If you watch as it turns, you can see the hem of its robe come up – very subject to the laws of physics, it seems to me.
The "short, running ghost" at an old brewery (I forget the name). Again, a very short entity, which behaves suspiciously like a short person running out, turning around and dashing behind the wall again.
The episode at Rysheen (sp?) in Ireland. The IR camera spotlights three entities moving behind the camera crew in the distance, but no one bothers to investigate.
It just strikes me that it would be easy for them to have a child (or midget, even!) pull some of these stunts. After all, we don't see what is happening off-camera.
That said, I still enjoy the show immensely. Just my skeptical nature speaking.
Dave @ 4:39 pm
I like the show too. It works for some reason. It could be the enthusiasm of the group that makes it more interesting than it would have been without it.
Re: Apparition In Prison
Looking at the YouTube version here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDSZkzRuQSA
It appears that the figure walks backwards and then runs forward.
The peculiar thing is that the video appears to have been sped up (about twice the normal speed) as the figure runs away. You can see this as the dust floating around suddenly begins to move faster. The only conclusion I can draw is that the latter part was deliberately sped up to obscure the figure (i.e. make it run faster so you can’t get a really good look at it – and it also makes it look more eerie). On top of this, taking into the account the placing of the sheet on the left as a marker (mentioned previously on this site), as Shakespeare would say, something is rotten in the State of Denmark.
The midget theory might be stretching things a bit. Someone crouching while moving would be more likely?
I think the figures in the forest (heat signatures) could actually be deer moving through the brush. Deer like to feed at night. That’s my best guess.
[BTW. I accidentally found this site trying to find out which of the 3 contestants won the Ghost Hunter Halloween 2007 Join. Anybody know yet?]
– Dave
J. @ 10:40 pm
Dave: The guy that won was Mark. Here's the contestants page:
http://www.scifi.com/ghosthunters/sanatorium/contestants/index.php
And for those interested, the Ghost Hunters International (GHI) site is up. There isn't much to it right now besides announcing the premiere date (a little over a month away) and having a PDF press release you can view/download.
http://www.scifi.com/ghi/
Dave @ 1:54 am
Mark won? Oh, Lordy!
Just what TAPS needs, instead of an expert on the paranormal or competent audio/video guy we get someone who nabs probation violation’ers. Well, not much to choose from to begin with.
It’s pretty clear they weren’t looking for a logical choice but rather just another ordinary Joe (or Jane) off the street who’s a fan of the paranormal. That’s entertainment. But I do feel sorry for that Mark guy. Didn’t they say he had 5 kids to look after? – make room for Deadbeat-Daddy!
Actually, I think they should have put that pretty Crystal chick in there as a permanent Ghost Huntress – ah, but alas, no luck.
– Dave
Carolus @ 3:34 am
Can someone tell me what the point of this show is?! Is it to simply document paranormal activity and prove or disprove these things for people why hire them OR are they supposed to HELP people?!
These ghost hunters are a bunch of clowns. They are self-absorbed and self-congratulatory amateurs. If they catch a breeze flapping a curtain in an uncontrolled environment they'll say they found paranormal activity.
What trips me up is that at the end of every show they get all into themselves and say some reflective rubbish ending with something to the effect of "great job. Yeah, great job,… [we found paranormal activity, told the family they have paranormal activity, we left them tormented, and we didn't do anything about it to attempt to resolve the case, to exorcise the ghosts, or otherwise cleanse the place!] Great job…"
If you compare Ghost Hunters with A&E's Paranormal State, the two shows are completely different. Paranormal State staff do background research on the history of the places and persons they study, they employ psychics, demonologists, religious persons, psychologists, and other persons who are at least minimally competent to HELP their clients! Paranormal State actually stay up all night, take better care of not contaminating their environments, and actually HELP their clients. Ghost Hunters, record a few hours of a night then suddenly Jason or Grant says "Ok guys, let's call it a night…" I am like "what? Call it a night?! What about sleeping during the day and staying up all night?!" I am actually surprised they are still on t.v., but then again, these types of shows tend to have artificial lifespans on cable that would otherwise not last a month on network television.
Logisti @ 1:55 am
I think that's a rather odd point of view you have there. To me it seems the complete opposite — as much as I find fault with TAPS and their "Ghost Hunting" methods, Paranormal State's methodology is almost entirely voodoo once you get past the initial research and interviews. They make no serious attempt to collect tangible evidence and opt instead to rely on psychics and seances.
Yes, PRS focuses on "helping" their clients, but TAPS does this also — when they have a client that needs help. Many of the investigations (St. Augustine Lighthouse, for instance) do not have clients who are troubled by the unexplained occurrences, and this allows TAPS to focus on trying to document the haunting rather than how the haunting is affecting living people or trying in some way to resolve or eliminate the supposed haunting.
The answer to the question "what is the point" of the Ghost Hunters show, is that there is no other show that comes close when it comes to trying to scientifically document paranormal phenomena. Admittedly, often many of us may not be satisfied with their methods or conclusions, but it still gives us better insight into whatever is or isn't going on than watching a psychic give "impressions" that are, if genuine, completely beyond our ability to relate to, understand or verify.
Kevin @ 6:27 pm
So, Carolus, the members of TAPS are "self-absorbed and self-congratulatory amateurs"? What does that make Ryan from Paranormal State? He takes self-absorption to a whole new level. He thinks he's being followed around by the demon Belial (don't dare utter the demon's name!). He's good at self-congratulation too. He does it every episode in his Director's Log.
The fact that Paranormal State employs psychics, demonologists (though TAPS did this too) and religious persons is a good reason to dismiss the show as b.s.
bill kelly @ 1:29 am
Carolus
we do not see it often, but donna and others do the research OFF camera. do we really wanna see 5 minutes or more of her talking to someone or looking through archives? yeah, that'll bring in ratings.
they also spend a lot more time than they show on tv. it always seems like they set up at night but that's called affect. in most of their locations they set up earlier and spend a lot more time but then have to take all that evidence/footage and get it to fit 30 minutes – on nights they have 2 investigations.
CrowTRobot @ 12:36 pm
Sorry, Carolus, I must disagree. There are things about GH that annoy me, but PS is almost laughable. In fact, throughout the entire show, the 'investigators' look like they are about to crack up. I can't believe adults would let these kids into their homes/businesses and take anything they came up with seriously…..but that's TV.
And that's just my opinion.
What If @ 2:42 pm
Hi,
I started watching GH last year. I can now say I feel like the dumbest person in the world. I thought Jay and Grant were down to earth, hard working, family oriented individuals educated in the field and seeking out the TRUTH. My heart sank after reading a forum on the Sci Fi site which in turn, brought me here. I have learned; The more knowledable you are, the less likely to be made a fool of.
I was reading this Ghost Hunter's Guide from the Hollow Hill web site and the last part reads on guideline number 18 " If someone is charging you money as if providing a show….perhaps they are. Caevet Emptor".
Keep up the good work.
Brian @ 9:43 pm
i personally think they deffinitly need to spend more time in a place than a few hours. i would imagine it would take alot more time to capture a ghost. the show seems authentic some of the equipment they use does not work like the the thermometor its not an acurate measurment. now the international series is a joke it the only evidence theyhave is personal experiences and voice recordings and they find every place they go to haunted. jason and grant would not find a place haunted with just personal experiences.
LB @ 11:33 pm
People watch the show because they are interested in the paranormal and they believe that Jason and Grant have good intentions. It's just entertainment, folks. Some of the people on the show annoy me to death too, particularly Brian (although I can't pin down why). What do you all think of the audios of the child on that one episode (can't remember what it was called). More to the point, what do you think about the audios in general? I enjoyed reading the posts – I had noticed everything that was listed, and I'm certainly no expert.
bill kelly @ 11:38 pm
LB
i think they were serious at 1st and were trying to help people, but it wasnt until the show took off when things changed. the bigger GH got the more it became entertainment not science. it's too bad because this field has grown into the mainstream and that means $ rules, not truth.
Charlotte @ 9:24 am
Good Morning, I find your site interesting. I am a fan of Ghost Hunters and watch them every chance I get. The show I mostd question is Ghost Hunters International. Brian and Barry always seem to have "experiences" without proof of the experience and Shannon is always scared out of her mind. Donna is always "touched" why do these former members of TAPS have all these experiences now in other countries? It makes no sense to me. Can you shed some light on this?
CrowTRobot @ 10:34 am
…"i think they were serious at 1st and were trying to help people, but it wasnt until the show took off when things changed. the bigger GH got the more it became entertainment not science"…
bill kelly, there seems to be quite a few people who feel this way. And let's be fair here. Let's assume they really were plummers that ran TAPS on the side – kind of like a hobby. For some reason, a tv network decides to do a series on your 'hobby'. Suddenly, you're on tv, with decent ratings, and now you've got a chance to quit your day job and let your hobby pay the bills……….
All…you….got…to…do…is…come up with some 'evidence' a little more often, and you won't have to plumb any more. That's hard to say "no" to.
Mary @ 2:17 pm
I also think that Ghost Hunters International is odd. (well, odder than the regular series, anyway) None of them ever tries to 'debunk' things, and they always seem to be running away, scared. (not just the girls, either).
It is sort of like an old Scooby-Doo episode with Shaggy and Scooby running away from the ghost/monster. No matter HOW many times they end up seeing the ghost is actually a person wearing a sheet, they still run away the next time!
But, hey… it's TV.