Why all the distrust?
[Please note this article was written in 2007 -- see other articles in the Skeptic's Library (on the right) for more updated and in-depth analysis]
1) One piece of aired evidence has been proven to have been doctored, although not necessarily by TAPS themselves. Still, how can we trust what we see if they permit their post-production company to fake footage without putting the word DRAMATIZATION on the screen?
2) There is a lot of suspicious footage, such as the shot which doesn't QUITE show Grant pulling on the lamp cord, but also doesn't quite line up with their "paranormal" declaration of the moving lamp. The moment there is a reasonable hypothesis how a piece of evidence could have been faked, and that explanation is entirely plausible given all the details (where the cameras were placed, how accessible the location was, etc) it should be discarded.
3) Consistently poor debunking jobs, despite their declaration that they go into a location attempting to disprove a haunting. From Grant's reaction to Tango's discovery on the Queen Mary (that the bed unmaking itself was hoaxed by someone messing with the video camera) we can see he was NOT keen on having that footage debunked. Were Tango not on the team it's likely that footage would have aired and been labeled paranormal evidence. And watching Brian fail to run in a straight line along a handrail simply because it was dark (season 1 at ESP, trying to "debunk" the apparition footage) was hardly a strong attempt at recreating the footage.
4) Experiments aren't properly controlled and equipment is misused. Steve was in a room at the Stanley Hotel with the window open and the wind blowing in through the curtains, trying to see if the bed shook or if anything touched him or if he heard anything. SHUT THE WINDOW FIRST! In another episode, Brian can be see pointing an IR thermometer (which reads SURFACE temperatures of what it is aimed at, not ambient temperature) in the direction of Donna and then at the wall behind her (while looking at the screen, not seeing what he was pointing at) and declared that the temperature dropped from 90 something to 60 something. D'ya think?
1 + 2 +3 + 4 = We cannot trust that we are being shown original, unaltered, unhoaxed footage when watching the show. We cannot trust that they are even competent at using their own equipment or drawing reasonable conclusions supported with facts.
So, while Jason and Grant might very well not "knowingly" put anything fake out there, it would seem there are still plenty of reasons for us to be cautious about what we're seeing on the show.
Comments on Why all the distrust?
mark @ 12:21 am
No one has posted here so i would like to be the first and kinda get the ball rolling. In paragraph 4 of Logisti's above comments on the ir thermometer, he is right, why are they using these things to measure ambient temperature, they dont. They measure what you are pointing at directly, i am in the automotive field and use these. They need to stop doing this! This does makes the investigators look less than competent as Logisti pointed out.
I started watching the show about 2 months ago and thought it was very cool. Then started doing research and found this great website. I am so glad i did and will try to add my two cents worth when appropriate. Maybe we will get someones attention!
I was a big fan of X-files and what did Mulder always say? "the truth is out there", well i think that it was we deserve and have a right to!
I mentioned in another post about the lack of control or direction in there experiments, so i agree with Logisti on this issue also. They need to clean up a lot of stuff and the way they do things and dont be so quick in some areas. This is some extremely heavy stuff they are dealing with and should treat it with more respect! That its for now, thank you for the honor and pleasure to post here!
(Report comment)
Logisti @ 12:10 pm
sneaker98, you don't make any sense. I haven't made any claims other than there has been a lot of evidence put forth by TAPS which is questionable for reasons x, y and z, all of which you can personally verify. If this offends you in some religious way then please do whatever you need to do to keep your faith but what you're saying is basically, "You don't believe TAPS so I'm not going to believe you and therefore I believe TAPS" which is essentially a pretend-logic way of saying, "I believe TAPS no matter what".
…and you are free to believe TAPS no matter what. I'm not stopping you. Still, pretty much everything I say can be independantly verified, so there is nothing to doubt except perhaps my conclusions if you think a particular piece of evidence cited by me isn't "substantial" then again, you're entitled to your opinion. Just do everyone a favor and quit with the "you don't give TAPS the benefit of the doubt" thing because A) I do. If I didn't this site would consist of one picture: Grant sitting next to the pulled-tight lamp cord, followed by a caption condemning TAPS as a bunch of frauds. B) You can doubt me all you want, it still doesn't make the evidence presented by TAPS any more credible or less doubtful.
(Report comment)
Logisti @ 9:19 am
Yes, nearly all of this is opinion. No one claimed otherwise. I think the Manson FLIR footage is the only "hard proof" on the site at the moment. If you don't like my opinions or think they're well-reasoned and accurate, then I'm afraid you're on the wrong website.
Allow me to address your points one-by-one since you seem to think this is an argument that one of us actually has a chance of winning (it's not).
1) Those audio stingers they play during the show disgust me. Not only are they distracting but they outright prevent the audience from hearing what the TAPS team is hearing sometimes and whoever is in charge of editing them in consistently over-does it as if they're mocking a Ghost Hunting show rather than working on one. That's my opinion on the sounds.
2) Circumstantial evidence — yeah, and? What's your point? I never "convicted" anyone in the court of public opinion (or even my own). I just said there was a bunch of stuff that seemed suspicious. Is circumstantial evidence no longer good reason for suspicion?
3) Look, there are only two possibilities about the debunking: Either myself and half the people I talk to could do a better job at it, or they're deliberately editing it to make TAPS look incompetent. I'm not sure what else you want me to say. In last night's interview Jason & Grant pretty much admitted that without Tango they would have certified the Queen Mary video as amazing evidence of the paranormal. Are you going to get upset with Jason & Grant now?
4) Again you're missing the point: The point isn't the specific incidents I mention, it's that there is a pattern of poor investigative technique that simply should *not* happen unless the people involved are either idiots or simply don't take their investigation seriously.
In closing: Yes, these are my *opinions* — and as always you are entitled to your own.
(Report comment)
Logisti @ 11:49 pm
sneaker98, I think you and I aren't as diametrically opposed as you seem to think. I'm not trying to make any case against TAPS honesty, I'm just saying that the circumstantial evidence raises legitimate questions — I never suggested it offered definitive answers to those questions.
As for the mistakes not being used as evidence, sometimes it's not but sometimes it is. Forget about the doctored FLIR footage from the Manson episode and just watch how they actually investigated during that scene. Jason is *finally* using the ambient attachment for the IR thermometer so he is actually measuring the ambient temperature fairly close to Chris Fleming (as he should).
Everything was fine and dandy until Grant decided to "confirm" Jay's temperature readings with the FLIR — and the FLIR only measures surface temperatures and it's centered on the wall several feel *behind* Fleming so it's not even reading the temperature *anywhere near* where Jay is reading.
Now, the FLIR wasn't shown during the reveal so far as we know but the intention was to collect evidence and he was completely misusing the instrument. If you want to say it doesn't count because it wasn't shown to the client I think that's nitpicking but even so, when you misuse your equipment that badly that often — and since we don't see them collecting every piece of evidence they show every client — how much confidence can we really have that they've never shown a client a piece of evidence that was improperly collected?
(Report comment)
Wally @ 2:04 pm
First, I love the show! And I watch it religiously every week.
There are things in their episodes that bother me. Let me mention three:
The "short, running ghost" at Eastern State Penitentiary. If you watch as it turns, you can see the hem of its robe come up - very subject to the laws of physics, it seems to me.
The "short, running ghost" at an old brewery (I forget the name). Again, a very short entity, which behaves suspiciously like a short person running out, turning around and dashing behind the wall again.
The episode at Rysheen (sp?) in Ireland. The IR camera spotlights three entities moving behind the camera crew in the distance, but no one bothers to investigate.
It just strikes me that it would be easy for them to have a child (or midget, even!) pull some of these stunts. After all, we don't see what is happening off-camera.
That said, I still enjoy the show immensely. Just my skeptical nature speaking.
(Report comment)
Dave @ 4:39 pm
I like the show too. It works for some reason. It could be the enthusiasm of the group that makes it more interesting than it would have been without it.
Re: Apparition In Prison
Looking at the YouTube version here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDSZkzRuQSA
It appears that the figure walks backwards and then runs forward.
The peculiar thing is that the video appears to have been sped up (about twice the normal speed) as the figure runs away. You can see this as the dust floating around suddenly begins to move faster. The only conclusion I can draw is that the latter part was deliberately sped up to obscure the figure (i.e. make it run faster so you can’t get a really good look at it – and it also makes it look more eerie). On top of this, taking into the account the placing of the sheet on the left as a marker (mentioned previously on this site), as Shakespeare would say, something is rotten in the State of Denmark.
The midget theory might be stretching things a bit. Someone crouching while moving would be more likely?
I think the figures in the forest (heat signatures) could actually be deer moving through the brush. Deer like to feed at night. That’s my best guess.
[BTW. I accidentally found this site trying to find out which of the 3 contestants won the Ghost Hunter Halloween 2007 Join. Anybody know yet?]
– Dave
(Report comment)
J. @ 10:40 pm
Dave: The guy that won was Mark. Here's the contestants page:
http://www.scifi.com/ghosthunters/sanatorium/contestants/index.php
And for those interested, the Ghost Hunters International (GHI) site is up. There isn't much to it right now besides announcing the premiere date (a little over a month away) and having a PDF press release you can view/download.
http://www.scifi.com/ghi/
(Report comment)
Dave @ 1:54 am
Mark won? Oh, Lordy!
Just what TAPS needs, instead of an expert on the paranormal or competent audio/video guy we get someone who nabs probation violation’ers. Well, not much to choose from to begin with.
It’s pretty clear they weren’t looking for a logical choice but rather just another ordinary Joe (or Jane) off the street who’s a fan of the paranormal. That’s entertainment. But I do feel sorry for that Mark guy. Didn’t they say he had 5 kids to look after? – make room for Deadbeat-Daddy!
Actually, I think they should have put that pretty Crystal chick in there as a permanent Ghost Huntress – ah, but alas, no luck.
– Dave
(Report comment)
Carolus @ 3:34 am
Can someone tell me what the point of this show is?! Is it to simply document paranormal activity and prove or disprove these things for people why hire them OR are they supposed to HELP people?!
These ghost hunters are a bunch of clowns. They are self-absorbed and self-congratulatory amateurs. If they catch a breeze flapping a curtain in an uncontrolled environment they'll say they found paranormal activity.
What trips me up is that at the end of every show they get all into themselves and say some reflective rubbish ending with something to the effect of "great job. Yeah, great job,… [we found paranormal activity, told the family they have paranormal activity, we left them tormented, and we didn't do anything about it to attempt to resolve the case, to exorcise the ghosts, or otherwise cleanse the place!] Great job…"
If you compare Ghost Hunters with A&E's Paranormal State, the two shows are completely different. Paranormal State staff do background research on the history of the places and persons they study, they employ psychics, demonologists, religious persons, psychologists, and other persons who are at least minimally competent to HELP their clients! Paranormal State actually stay up all night, take better care of not contaminating their environments, and actually HELP their clients. Ghost Hunters, record a few hours of a night then suddenly Jason or Grant says "Ok guys, let's call it a night…" I am like "what? Call it a night?! What about sleeping during the day and staying up all night?!" I am actually surprised they are still on t.v., but then again, these types of shows tend to have artificial lifespans on cable that would otherwise not last a month on network television.
(Report comment)
Logisti @ 1:55 am
I think that's a rather odd point of view you have there. To me it seems the complete opposite — as much as I find fault with TAPS and their "Ghost Hunting" methods, Paranormal State's methodology is almost entirely voodoo once you get past the initial research and interviews. They make no serious attempt to collect tangible evidence and opt instead to rely on psychics and seances.
Yes, PRS focuses on "helping" their clients, but TAPS does this also — when they have a client that needs help. Many of the investigations (St. Augustine Lighthouse, for instance) do not have clients who are troubled by the unexplained occurrences, and this allows TAPS to focus on trying to document the haunting rather than how the haunting is affecting living people or trying in some way to resolve or eliminate the supposed haunting.
The answer to the question "what is the point" of the Ghost Hunters show, is that there is no other show that comes close when it comes to trying to scientifically document paranormal phenomena. Admittedly, often many of us may not be satisfied with their methods or conclusions, but it still gives us better insight into whatever is or isn't going on than watching a psychic give "impressions" that are, if genuine, completely beyond our ability to relate to, understand or verify.
(Report comment)
Kevin @ 6:27 pm
So, Carolus, the members of TAPS are "self-absorbed and self-congratulatory amateurs"? What does that make Ryan from Paranormal State? He takes self-absorption to a whole new level. He thinks he's being followed around by the demon Belial (don't dare utter the demon's name!). He's good at self-congratulation too. He does it every episode in his Director's Log.
The fact that Paranormal State employs psychics, demonologists (though TAPS did this too) and religious persons is a good reason to dismiss the show as b.s.
(Report comment)
bill kelly @ 1:29 am
Carolus
we do not see it often, but donna and others do the research OFF camera. do we really wanna see 5 minutes or more of her talking to someone or looking through archives? yeah, that'll bring in ratings.
they also spend a lot more time than they show on tv. it always seems like they set up at night but that's called affect. in most of their locations they set up earlier and spend a lot more time but then have to take all that evidence/footage and get it to fit 30 minutes - on nights they have 2 investigations.
(Report comment)
CrowTRobot @ 12:36 pm
Sorry, Carolus, I must disagree. There are things about GH that annoy me, but PS is almost laughable. In fact, throughout the entire show, the 'investigators' look like they are about to crack up. I can't believe adults would let these kids into their homes/businesses and take anything they came up with seriously…..but that's TV.
And that's just my opinion.
(Report comment)
What If @ 2:42 pm
Hi,
I started watching GH last year. I can now say I feel like the dumbest person in the world. I thought Jay and Grant were down to earth, hard working, family oriented individuals educated in the field and seeking out the TRUTH. My heart sank after reading a forum on the Sci Fi site which in turn, brought me here. I have learned; The more knowledable you are, the less likely to be made a fool of.
I was reading this Ghost Hunter's Guide from the Hollow Hill web site and the last part reads on guideline number 18 " If someone is charging you money as if providing a show….perhaps they are. Caevet Emptor".
Keep up the good work.
(Report comment)
Brian @ 9:43 pm
i personally think they deffinitly need to spend more time in a place than a few hours. i would imagine it would take alot more time to capture a ghost. the show seems authentic some of the equipment they use does not work like the the thermometor its not an acurate measurment. now the international series is a joke it the only evidence theyhave is personal experiences and voice recordings and they find every place they go to haunted. jason and grant would not find a place haunted with just personal experiences.
(Report comment)
LB @ 11:33 pm
People watch the show because they are interested in the paranormal and they believe that Jason and Grant have good intentions. It's just entertainment, folks. Some of the people on the show annoy me to death too, particularly Brian (although I can't pin down why). What do you all think of the audios of the child on that one episode (can't remember what it was called). More to the point, what do you think about the audios in general? I enjoyed reading the posts - I had noticed everything that was listed, and I'm certainly no expert.
(Report comment)
bill kelly @ 11:38 pm
LB
i think they were serious at 1st and were trying to help people, but it wasnt until the show took off when things changed. the bigger GH got the more it became entertainment not science. it's too bad because this field has grown into the mainstream and that means $ rules, not truth.
(Report comment)
Charlotte @ 9:24 am
Good Morning, I find your site interesting. I am a fan of Ghost Hunters and watch them every chance I get. The show I mostd question is Ghost Hunters International. Brian and Barry always seem to have "experiences" without proof of the experience and Shannon is always scared out of her mind. Donna is always "touched" why do these former members of TAPS have all these experiences now in other countries? It makes no sense to me. Can you shed some light on this?
(Report comment)
CrowTRobot @ 10:34 am
…"i think they were serious at 1st and were trying to help people, but it wasnt until the show took off when things changed. the bigger GH got the more it became entertainment not science"…
bill kelly, there seems to be quite a few people who feel this way. And let's be fair here. Let's assume they really were plummers that ran TAPS on the side - kind of like a hobby. For some reason, a tv network decides to do a series on your 'hobby'. Suddenly, you're on tv, with decent ratings, and now you've got a chance to quit your day job and let your hobby pay the bills……….
All…you….got…to…do…is…come up with some 'evidence' a little more often, and you won't have to plumb any more. That's hard to say "no" to.
(Report comment)
Mary @ 2:17 pm
I also think that Ghost Hunters International is odd. (well, odder than the regular series, anyway) None of them ever tries to 'debunk' things, and they always seem to be running away, scared. (not just the girls, either).
It is sort of like an old Scooby-Doo episode with Shaggy and Scooby running away from the ghost/monster. No matter HOW many times they end up seeing the ghost is actually a person wearing a sheet, they still run away the next time!
But, hey… it's TV.
(Report comment)
brian @ 2:44 pm
i like watching the origional series but international seams a bit fake also has anybody watches the other show that comes on sci fi called ghost encounters it sometimes comes on after ghost hunters it looks cool and they go to places alone just 2 poeple
(Report comment)
sandy @ 3:20 pm
First of all, I just want to say I really enjoy GH, and I really like this website as well. Good job! But why does TAPS hate you so much? You seem like such polite, well behaved skeptics…
Just to see how open-minded TAPS is, I posted links to 2 sections of this site with the captions "is this true?" and "what happened here" on their message board. Other than a confused smiley face, I didn't add any comments of my own.
I immediately got a reply warning me to not post such things because it would upset people. And within about 3 minutes the posts were locked down and blocked from further comments. Soon enough my posts were actually deleted by the forum administration. So I then posted the following question:
"Why is it not allowable to discuss sites that seek to debunk Ghost Hunters? Lots of debunking of other sites evidence can been seen on this forum. Doesn't that make TAPS look hypocritical?
I'm not saying I agree or disagree with what the skepticalviewer site had to say. I'm just saying that by deleting such posts from the message boards, TAPS is making it clear that GH is a sacred cow not to be questioned. I thought Jason and Grant started this whole thing because they had questions of their own. Shouldn't other people be allowed to question?"
The response from the TAPS message board administrator (LINI) was as follows:
"What happens on other boards, stays on other boards. That's been our policy from day 1. If we've irritated you that much, please feel free to log out, clear your history and cache and forget about us."
That was followed by quite a few negative comments from other TAPS posters. Interestingly enough, there are lots of references to other message boards on the TAPS site, just not the ones that question GH.
I think it would be great if everyone here logged on to TAPS (http://www.the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/) and asked similar questions. I would love to hear what reactions everyone gets from TAPS. I really enjoy the show, but I think the TAPS people are a little too overprotective. If TAPS wants to be taken seriously as trying to promote the use of scientific techniques in the study of the paranormal, then it should be open to such questions. If it isn’t open to questioning, then I guess it just became a religion.
(Report comment)
MARK @ 4:38 am
(NOTE FROM ADMINISTRATOR TO MARK: I HAVE FIXED YOUR POST, PLEASE DO NOT POST IN ALL CAPS AGAIN)
Hi folks - my wife got me into gh about a year ago. We always argue about the "evidence" & have good fun watching the show. Good entertaining fun is where this should stop. I honestly can't understand why this show has been taken so seriously by so many people? Does anyone have any good common sense anymore? Come on: it's a tv reality show made by a production company to turn a profit for the sci-fi channel.
The show is brillianlty manufactured to appear like it's a cheesebag low budget group of 5 or 6 people who find real evidence of ghosts. Does anyone remember that we have real science to live by??? There are no such thing as ghosts, period!!! The whole show is a 100% staged production!!! Do you really think jason and grant are regular shlubs who work for roto router 40 hours a week & actually get a call from the gh office about a case that just got called in? Come on???
Jason and grant most likely have an entertainment contract as paid spokesman for roto router. What great advertising for roto router!! If they were for real, then there would not be a production camera crew filming a couple of roto router schlubs changing a toilet seat when the "hot ghost call" comes in on the cell phone.
Let's move on: do you really think that the gh team are the only people in these haunted places just because they are the only ones seen on camera??? There is a whole production crew in there w/ them. There are sound people, video people, production staff, pr people, etc…
Moving on further: all of the "real" ghost evidence i have seen so far from gh can easily be faked by a 15 year old, let alone a tv series production company of educated adults making a tv show to shock and entertain.
Come on: you don't even have to look very hard to see the feet walking under the black sheet in the prison catwalk episode. You have to be completely retarded not to see that the ghost in the door w/ the number "2" (funeral home episode) is a reflection of grant or something faked by a production crew member off camera or in post production. (also, jason & grant say in that sequence that they were the only ones in the room when they caught the image on flir. Who do you think was filming them and recording audio?: a production crew!!!)
Next: in the insane asylum episode, it's so obvious that the "shadow person" seen running accross a hall is just a shorter person or a child running in front of the flir. Also, does anyone really believe that the evp stuff is real? It's just production people off camera whispering or muttering, or it's added in post produciton.
I could go on forever, but i don't want to ramble…… I just had to make a few comments becuase i hear so many people always talking about this show as if it were real. It's fake, it's good entertainment. That's all.
(Report comment)
MARK @ 5:05 am
Sorry, but i have a p.s. i just remembered: i can't place the episode name, but it's the one where the lady says her child sees ghosts. They make the lady cry when she hears the "evp" of children saying: "they don't want us here".
If that lady was a genuine stranger who called in depseration, i hope the show producers were smart enough to get a signed release or some type of written contract from her. If it ever comes to light that all of this stuff is really staged, that lady has a good claim for suit against the sci-fi channel for emotional distress. They genuinely upset her on national television w/ this fake scientific crap. If she really was a total stranger who called her problem in to the "taps team office", how would they know her state of mind or her level of mental stability.
There has to be a produciton company and lawyers to screen these people. I said above we watch the show in good fun, but that episode was very cruel to that lady. She appeared genuinely shaken and upset.
(Report comment)
CrowTRobot @ 8:52 am
Mark,
You're yelling to the choir here. I think every claim you made has already been addressed on this website. Just because most here try to be respectful doesn't mean we're sheep. Apparently, most of that grazing is done on TAPS own website.
(Report comment)
brian @ 9:36 am
i think the best way to get a paranormal experience is to go out on your own and try to find it although i like the origional series alot their are alot of things i can debunk myself that they call evidence i have been to places like salem mass, savannah georgia , england, scottland , st augustine lighthouse and many other places looking for ghosts iv even stayed in supposedly haunted hotel rooms although some places scare the hell out of me i never had any personal experiences that i could not debunk. origional ghost hunters is the best ghost hunting show on tv thats why i whatch it the only thing i wish they would stop using is the thermometor and emp detector they dont appear to work
(Report comment)
John Olson @ 2:35 pm
I agree about Ireland. I also thought of deer when I saw the shapes. Deer move in groups like that as they graze (at night) and they often walk behind humans (as a form of evasion), because they know that we rarely look behind us, and lack rear view eyes.
(Report comment)
MARK @ 12:54 am
One more quick thought, partially in taps' favor this time. As i said above, i watch this show for pure entertainment value & it's my wife who believes it. However, the only footage i have seen so far that actually makes me go "wow" are the shadow people on the stairs of the lighthouse (caught by the stable video camera pointed straight up from the bottom). It's quite impressive, but once again the trust issue of a commercially produced reality show comes into play. If the lighthouse footage was not faked, then real history may have been made. If it was faked, it would have to have been in post production by very primitive & easy to use "home photo shop" type digital imaging software. Once again, who do you trust????????? That's the problem.
(Report comment)
MARK @ 1:21 am
One more thing - (can you all tell that i'm on midnight shift, it's very slow & i'm bored???) On evp: why do so many people believe taps & thier evp evidence. Come on, this isn't even college level science here. Everyone should know that any sound on earth is only made by the movement of air. You need air & something pushing it to make sounds. That's why our vocal chords vibrate: to move air that travels to our ear drums. That's how we hear speech. If a spoon falls & hits the floor, it moves the air to our eardrums & we hear it hit the ground (bone stoopid simple example - sorry about that). That's why there is no sound in space. There's no air. There is no way in hell that strange ghostly voices just turn up on a recorder w/ no source. Vocal cords from this earth moved the air to make these sounds or some type of other audio devise making sounds is used to move air to travel to the recorder's microphone to record it. If it's a ghost making the evp recordings, then they have to have lungs filled w/ air & vibrating vocal cords to push the air to the microphone to record the sound. It's that simple and scientifically sound. That's why genuine science does not recognize all of this silly ghost hunting "evidence". Come on america, it's just people whispering off camera or sounds added in post production to make a reality show interesting…..
(Report comment)
brian @ 3:58 pm
all in all ghost hunters is a good show it may be fake it may be real i dont know but its the best ghost hunting show on tv if you want a real ghost experience then you need to go out on your own and try to find one
(Report comment)
Mary @ 2:14 pm
Mark, I agree with you about the 'ghosts' talking. Just like I wonder how 'ghosts' can make a sound when they walk? Do they have to walk (or open doors) at all? Don't they just float? LOL! And like you, the only thing I've seen on GH that impressed me was the lighthouse shadow shot that pointed straight up. But,like you pointed out, this is TV, and footage can be easily doctored. It's fun to have an open mind, as long as your brains don't fall out in the process. *picks up brain* "Look, me brain fell out!"
I do love this website, just like I enjoy Ghost Hunters. It makes me laugh.
(Report comment)
WJ @ 11:38 pm
I watch GH and also have some concerns over the evidence gathered. I'm an scientist/engineer by profession and know there are some things which can be explained. At the same time, there are things in this world that you cannot explain.
So, my proposition to you is this. With all your resources (especially all these skeptics out here), why not gather and put all your skepticism to the test. Find the episode with the most "activity" and duplicate the investigation. See what you can catch for a longer period of time. In the biotech/pharma industry, there a saying about validation and qualification: one time is luck, twice is a fluke, thrice is verifiable.
(Report comment)
medievil @ 3:35 am
I suppose my issue with being Skeptical, is that people are basing it on an EDITED tv show…
Take the lamp for instance, there are multiple camera angles, not used on the broadcast…And Grants arm is CLEARLY visable…just don't get the critique that because someone DOESN'T believe it, it is automatically Grant that is doing X thing…
Skeptics come up with "It's fishing line" because they don't want to believe that their may be something to it…
The Beadsheet moving while grant is sleeping.. you can SEE his feet placement, you can SEE there is no movement where his arms are…Yet because skeptics don't WANT to believe, the Grant is moving it soultion is the one they accept…
So I suppose I am skeptical of the skeptics… other then the flir time stamp, which could be a number of things (like production losing the original flir footage and recreating it)
All skeptics have done is come up with alternate solutions that are no more plausable than something REAL happening…but yet once they have the alternate, that seems to be the ONLY solution they want to accept…really crazy IMHO…
It's fine to be skeptical, even to offer alternative solutions, but to then claim someone is a hoaxer is a HUGE leap..
(Report comment)
medievil @ 3:40 am
@ Mark, about sound and Air…
That is true, FOR a PERSON/ANIMAL… but when recording a microphone works electrically… audible sound moves a diaprham which creates an electrical current that is then either digitally or magnetically recorded…Sound in this for can be produced BOTH ways…a small electrical impluse can be recorded as audio, much in the same way a radio transmits audio…electrical into a device that records digital or magnetically is easily done…
If a spirit is ENERGY, it COULD communicate that way without you ever hearing it audibly
(Report comment)
D @ 3:38 am
Medieval, skeptics don't always claim "it's fishing line" because it's all they want to believe; skeptics claim "it could be fishing line" when the chain of evidence is broken in such a way as to provide viable and yes sometimes upseting or disturbing alternatives.
Look, our entire justice system is established on the "chain of evidence." Evidence found at the scene of a crime is photgraphed before it is ever touched. Evidence is then tagged with an identification number and bagged for collection. All numbers are registered with the evidence department at the local station. All visitors to the evidence department must sign in and state what evidence they wish to see. Finally the evidence is removed for trial and presentation. If the chain of evidence is broken, the "evidence" is LITERALLY invalidated in a court of law (we'll forgoe mentioning cases where this occured in recent years).
So here's the deal: you're acting with the same guilt that you're accusing the very generic "skeptics" of. You come to the table having certain presuppositions about the paranormal. That's seriously fine. Other's come with doubts. That's fine too. But don't accuse people of just "not wanting to believe" when what they're REALLY doing is being judicious with the "evidence" TAPS claims to have collected. And BTW, many people on here ARE believers who are acting with similar judiciousness (sp?).
(Report comment)
medievil @ 2:48 pm
@d,
I've no problem with people being skeptics per say…BUT, by your logic, of "It COULD have been Fishing line" applied to a court of law "It COULD have been someone else" ..without proof, it's not a valid assumption…
Now if you RECREATE the scenerio, provide the same results for all to see, that is called Debunking….untill that time, I see it more as slandering a guy without any shread of proof…
(Report comment)
D @ 10:04 pm
Here's a recreation of the chair event at St. Augustine's Lighthouse.
http://www.skepticalanalysis.com/reports/ghosts/chair_revisited.html
No one here has come out and directly accused ANY member of TAPS of Hoaxing. All that's been said is that the chain of evidence, which they claim proves a place is haunted, is consistently broken by 1 individual. In addition, that said individual is often at the center of these types of events, in many cases alone or unobserved. Ipsofacto the evidence cannot be effectively used one way or the other. That's what the whole notion of "reasonable doubt" is all about.
(Report comment)
Christie @ 6:21 pm
Great website. I agree we need to be skeptic even when it comes to TAPS, though I feel Jason and Grant to be very sincere you must take into account that the people working with Jason and Grant like anybody cant always be trusted but that there is a risk they have to take because they need the extra help. The only other person I trust on the show beside Jason and Grant is Steve and even then you never know. I like this show because Jason is quick to debunk something before saying its unexplainable and leave it at that. True they're things I think they could change maybe do better but there isnt any ghost hunting show on tv that does a better job and seems to be as honest. Paranormal State seems to be very questionable. I dont like that they do seonces and furthermore wheres the evidence. They always seem to be hearing something during dead hour but I sure as hell cant hear it and unfortunately wont because they apparently dont think thats important for their audience. Look I could care less about your personal experience if you cant even give me at least an EVP!
(Report comment)
iwanttobelieve @ 2:28 pm
Brilliant! I have been saying this forever! Some scientists out there need to get a show called something like "Truth Seekers," and debunk this stuff bit by bit! I know, I know, nobody would really watch it because they would be taking all of the fun out of scariness.
Hey, I have heard that there is a show in SCI called "Destination Truth" - maybe they already do this? (I'm living in Canada right now and we don't get the actual Sci Fi channel).
(Report comment)
Stephen @ 10:08 pm
There is a TV pilot out there for a show called "The Skeptologists" involving skeptics investigating paranormal phenomena. I'm really hoping it gets picked up. You can find out about it here:
http://skeptologists.com/
They're looking for letters of support to help them get on the air, so if it looks like something you'd like to watch, you can help get it on the air!
(Report comment)
iwanttobelieve @ 12:25 pm
Thanks, Stephen -
I hope this gets picked up. It kind of reminds me of "Myth Busters," a similar show on Discovery, I think? I'd love to see one that just focused on "ghost buster busting," but maybe there's not enough of an audience…
You would think there would be, considering how many "ghost hunting" shows there are on tv right now!
(Report comment)
Oubliette @ 12:24 am
This is as good a place as any to discuss the skepticism a lot of us have had about GH, esp. after the first 2 seasons or so.
First, a show involving skeptics analysing supposed paranormal activity is way past overdue. There needs to be some sort of balancing act. I don't mean people who are non-believers, who are a different sort of folks altogether. But people like those on this website, who present arguments pro and con re: various events and reach a tentative conclusion either way are true skeptics. Sometimes occurrences do seem to be outright frauds; while others are given the benefit of the doubt. And that is how it should be.
I feel that a decent illusionist/magician also should be part of a team to give a professional view from that standpoint. Look what a marvelous job Houdini did in debunking the fake mediums who were robbing people of both their money and their emotional stability. He could duplicate each and every trick that the mediums performed. It is just a sad fact that all his work went for naught, as can be evidenced by many famous names we associate today with this "business" of mediumship. He may even have sacrificed his life trying to expose the unsavory world of the mediums.
Lastly, I see the subject has been brought up of those who have posted seemingly harmless questions on TAPS' own boards regarding some questionable evidence. Talk about calling out the lynch mob! I see that a certain moderator is particularly vicious. I have felt the lash of her demeaning posts more then once.
When I kept pushing the now famous FLIR timestamp discrepancy, she lashed at me so viciously with words that I cannot repeat here. NO moderator should have reacted in that manner, using language unsuitable for a lady or anyone with a sense of decency. I have saved her response to my hard drive as it was so unprofessional and simply outrageous. I thought of complaining to Jason but that would have gotten me nowhere. He shortly after called all of us who questioned the FLIR problem "idiots" on his blog.
IMO, any sincere investigators would welcome a healthy debate. But that board has grown into a cult, and it is impossible to reach those types of people.
I do have a story to tell about some evidence myself and another woman saw from the Crescent Hotel visit, and which we tried to get anyone from the TAPS team to take a look at it. Our story shows what happens when possible evidence missed by TAPS gets tossed away because they happened to have missed it. But I'll save that story for another day.
Sorry for my long posts but I've finally found a website where one can air suspicions, remarks and yes, even defense of GH in some cases, without getting hit over the head. Intelligent discussion seems to be lacking on so many forums. This is a friendly place where disagreement is accepted and not punished, but analysed intelligently. Then everyone can come to his/her own conclusion without fear of repercussions.
There I go, waxing on again. I'm just glad this site exists and provides a haven for balanced discussions and analysis. I hope that its membership grows as more discover that people can debate this famous (or infamous) show in a civilized manner.
(Report comment)