Just an added thing I just noticed. In the "After" picture it actually looks like the tablecloth *IS* bunching up just a little bit. It *could* be a shadow created by the lighting, but it looks quite similar to the little bump we see in the tablecloth in the 1st debunking picture.

(Report comment)

This is quite sad.

In my mind, with the many examples you've put forward, the trustworthiness of TAPS has flown right out the window.

In the first place, why the hell didn't SciFi do this show right and use legitimate, degreed parapsychologists? Not to malign citizen ghost-hunters, but wouldn't a TV show about the paranormal be better served with principals who actually know what they should be doing to properly investigate anomalies?
*especially* when it comes to debunking!

…I can't remember as I only watched the show once, but wasn't it the SciFi channel who, in another forgettable paranormal investigative show, hired as a skeptic 'Boston Rob' whose sole claim to trained skeptical fame was he was on (and partially won — by marrying the winner!) 'Survivor'?

(Report comment)

Interesting: I do hope the guys are not trying to “create” evidence to bring in the viewers.

Remember- TAPS started long before the tv show started. I don’t think that they would want to ruin their credibility by faking things.

The show is edited a lot and it could be possible that things were “hacked” up so it could appear that they didn’t do a good job debunking the lamp. I saw that on a few other episodes as well where it appeared that they didn’t debunk a few things.

I did want to add that this is a very interesting site and it is nice to get a different perspective of the show. (I have a lot of questions on the whole Manson episode!)

(Report comment)

Cherchez la Femme, the show with Rob Mariano as the "skeptic" is Sci Fi Investigates. The site is scifi.com/investigates

(Report comment)

[...] how that makes it even more awesome. Really, I've got nothing to say on this. Just read the moving lamp page if you're unfamiliar with [...]

(Report comment)

Just to say, good job on the debunking end.

Re: The lamp moving in the Slave Shack on the Plantation.

After watching that episode again - Yes! – I’ve come to the conclusion that Grant isn’t as honest, and upright, and clean as he makes out on the show. There’s no question that the cord had been moved and was up in the air enough to suggest, if not prove, that Grant had a hold on it. It’s pretty sad because it calls into question the integrity of all the, so called, evidence that the Ghost Hunters have collected – not to mention some other things mentioned on this site.

– Dave

(Report comment)

It crossed my mind that another possible explanation is that someone has plugged another device into the same outlet at some point and gotten that cable entwined with the lamp's. Imagine if it were, say, the audio guy or camera operator and, as they move slowly 'round with his gear, he slowly pulls on the lamp cord.

Of course, someone would have had to un-plug that device later (and someone tucks it back under the frame, obviously) and would surely, if honest, have pointed this out to everyone. So, in the end, even positing this benign explanation, it still smells of un-truth.

Maggie

PS - My personal feeling is that Jason might err on the side of skepticism when push comes to shove, but that Grant is a true believer in search of validation for his belief. I think this is shown quite clearly on their radio show when they have Steve Novella on. Grant just couldn't grasp why the skeptics were dismissing his anecdotal/experiential 'evidence' in favour of following the scientific method. Jason, on the other hand, seemed to readily agree that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and that skeptics were correct in that none had been presented. The constantly increasing implausibility based on lack of real evidence doesn't seem to cause Grant's steadfast belief to waver one iota.

(Report comment)

Maggie: I had wondered if they had a bit of the true believer syndrome, what with calling people with sheets draped over them running about paranormal and all.

What you say about Grant seems to confirm it, at least for him.

I wonder if being a true believer would drive someone to try to fool people by faking stuff.

(Report comment)

Maggie,

The camera appears to have been set up at such a location and angle to capture the movement of the lamp and nothing else. There was nothing else of interest in the picture (e.g. why wasn't the camera on wide angle covering the whole room, as usual). This double damns Grant.

– Dave

J.,

I've never tried to figure out what a true believer would do, but I imagine there are all kinds, like in anything else. Some would never fake evidence, some would fake it some of the time, while others would readily fake it all the time.

It's kind of like U. Geller. In my opinion, some of his early work in ESP was likely genuine - but you can't get rich and famous by demonstrating knowing 8 dice throws in a row. So, what to do? - claim you stopped Big Ben, and other such sensational nonsense, in order to get the attention.

– Dave

(Report comment)

The more people a true believer can get to believe in their particular thing, the more sane it makes them look. Afterall, the more people that believe in it, the more truer it is… right?

Sorry, but nope.

Sanity by consensus is crap. It works well for religions tho.

Uhg, "psychics". I don't know who is worse.. religious charlatans who claim they can heal people but instead swindle the gullible and desperate out of their money, or psychics who purport to know personal info, or worse yet talk to one's deceased friends and relatives, and also cheat people out of their money.

(Report comment)

J.,

Re: Who is worse?

Actually, religious charlatans are far worse because they claim to do it in the name of God – as if endorsed by God Almighty.

“Thou shalt not take the name of the thy Lord thy God in vain.” – Bible

Most people think this means swearing, but it really means what you’re talking about.

Let them be damned to the everlasting flames in a scorching, stinking HELL – except when they make an appearance on Ghost Hunters, of course.

- Dave

(Report comment)

I dunno, psychics that claim to talk to your deceased friends and family are pretty low too.

Some of the psychics might claim to do it in the name of God too.

(Report comment)

i agree.. "Boston Rob" as skeptic on a show? ridiculous! but, to hire "parapsychologist" or "professional paranormal investigators"? i dont know. ive said this a few times.. but just look at the travesty on the travel channel???

(Report comment)

WOW… now after i reviewed what you wrote about the cord again. WOW.. that cord is with out a doubt being pulled! or atleast looks to be being pulled. AND not just that, if you look closely there is TWO CORDS right at the edge of the table, before it strecthes in the direction towards grants covered left hand. There seems to be another cord. of the way it is being pulled is from the middle of the cord and just folded up as being pulled. BUT in another picture there is clearly another object that is plugged in. so this could be the other cord (in the photo with grant having his arms folded).

This makes me really upset. It clearly looks like he is pulling the cord. WOW. im at a loss for words. i would like to hear or see a different explanation that would show why the cord looks to be being pulled by Grant. I was all about their intregity and honesty. that they seemed legit. this completely has changed EVERYTHING!

(Report comment)

sorry for another comment. i am just so suprised at this piece of evidence. this is more clear cut and upsetting than the doctored "FLIR" footage. that could be a mistake. this is NOT. he is pulling that cord!

(Report comment)

When you take this, a pretty damning example of Grant perpetrating a hoax, then you add the thump under the table at Stanley Hotel (that startled the cameraman), the bed sheet being pulled off Grant's feet at the Copper Queen Hotel (which looks suspiciously like a string tugging the sheet back off camera) and the Queen Mary incident (which also looked like a string pulling the sheet back), then it leaves you with one obvious answer: Grant is manufacturing evidence for the show.

Notice how angry Grant is when the hoax is revealed on the Queen Mary episode. Then watch the Copper Queen Hotel episode (where he's presented with another ghost story of a spirit supposedly pulling sheets off a bed) and notice that this time the camera is ONLY aimed at his feet, the rest of him is completely off screen. It's as if he was trying to employ the trick once again, but this time he wasn't going to let the same mistake happen twice.

None of what I'm saying is proof of anything, but rather a theory of mine that fits a disturbing pattern. You can write off the FLIR incident as Pilgrim Films tampering with the evidence. You could maybe even excuse the Eastern State footage as some kind of JFK like conspiracy by Pilgrim and/or Sci-Fi Channel (with the footage being sped up it rules out a prank by someone from Eastern State). But with Grant being caught red handed like this, it throws out all of TAPS' credibility right out the window and calls everything else into question.

Shawn

(Report comment)

Marc, ….. I'm sure the second cord, you're refering to there, is actually just a shadow of the original cord on the wall (you can also see a similiar shadow at Grant's nose, on the wall).

Shawn, ….. The bed sheet being pulled off Grant's feet, at the Copper Queen Hotel is likely faked. Because of the convinient angle of the camera, Grant could have easily just reached down, under the covers, and pulled the sheet from underneath with his hand. Given the lamp-cord trick, this didn't impress me when I saw it.

– Dave

(Report comment)

I agree. The sheet being pulled up while Grant was "sleeping" is not impressive at all and probably is faked.

Anybody who touts this as evidence of the paranormal is really reaching. Then again, they think people with sheets draped over them running around is impressive.

I also agree with Shawn's previous post. It really hurts their credibility, especially Grants. But not only does them getting caught hoaxing stuff lessen their credibility, so does them thinking weak, flimsy evidence is good evidence. Their bad debunking jobs don't help anything either.

(Report comment)

Actually if you watch the reveal in that episode with the sheet being pulled off Grant's feet you will see a little tension between Grant & Jay.

Grant is all gung-ho about calling it solid evidence and Jay gives him a look that seems (to me, at least) almost as if he suspects something isn't quite right, and repeatedly states very strongly that he feels the video is inconclusive.

His given reason is that we can't see where Grant's other leg is and he might have accidentally moved the sheet with his other leg, but in fact we can see quite clearly the dent where Grant's other leg is (or was) and the only way his other leg could have moved the sheet in that way would be very carefully and deliberately.

This is only one of a number of times early in the show where Jay seems to specifically distrust some evidence Grant personally collected and/or had possible opportunity to tamper with.

(Report comment)

So the question on my mind is: Why doesn't Jason do anything about it if he thinks Grant is possibly hoaxing stuff?

And for that matter, why doesn't SciFi or anyone else step in and do something about it?

(Report comment)

But why would Sci-Fi care at all if they were faking evidence on the show? As long as it's bringing in the ratings, they're not going to care one bit what goes on behind the scenes - as long as it doesn't come out, which would nail the coffin shut on the whole series. Sci-Fi certainly isn't worried about how the consequences of it could seriously tarnish the credibility of the paranormal field, and why should they?

And that's what kills me the most. If you listen to J & G on "Ghost Hunters", as well as their radio show, they're always going on about how they hope everything they've shown will help people take the paranormal more seriously. They've pointed out how they've had countless people from the FBI, NASA, and other government agencies, as well as universities around the country, coming to them to understand more about the paranormal. Yet here they are caught manufacturing evidence - not Sci-Fi Channel, not Pilgrims Films, not even lowly members of TAPS, but Grant himself, the "co-founder". How bad does this look?

As far as whether or not Jason knows, honestly, I don't see how he can't not know. It's possible I suppose, but rather unlikely.

Now my understanding of Jason and Grant's relationship was that they both had met while working for Roto Rooter as plumbers, became good friends and formed TAPS together. However, according to the two of them on "Beyond Reality", Jason was looking for someone who could create a web site for TAPS back in the early days and Grant responded to his ad. If that's the case, then Jason had founded TAPS before he met Grant.

So could Jason hold TAPS dearer to him than Grant does because its really his baby? I suppose there's an argument for that. But even if that is the case, he's not doing a very good job of protecting the group's image if his own partner is sitting there faking evidence right under his nose. So you see, whether Jason knows or not, it doesn't make him look good either way.

(Report comment)

L & J, ….. The "Roto Rooter" angle looks like just a plug for that company. Maybe only Jason worked for that company, who ssems more knowledgable in that area, and they threw in Grant as a fake plumber. On the other hand, maybe it's all fake and just for publicity and sponsership? And yes, it's inconsistant with the other story. I also wonder if the Sci-Fi people went to them first, or if they when to Sci-Fi with the proposal. It would be interesting to get the real story, but I guess we never will.

Somehow, I think the FBI, NASA, and other government agencies being interested is pure bull. I mean, give me a break! I wouldn't have believed that even as a 5 year old kid. Well, that's entertainment.

And yes, I'm sure Jason is aware of Grant's shenanigans.

I think that Jason is no saint either. In the Stanley, with the drinking glass scenario, you hear, what sounds like, the bit of glass dropping off and vibrating on the table, and then the chink-sound of the glass breaking. The sounds should be in the other order (chink-drop rather than drop-chink).

– Dave

(Report comment)

Funny thing about Grant’s table-thump at the Stanley. Just before it happens there’s a shot of Grant closing the drapes and looking back into the camera — as if he’s wondering if he’s being watched. If it is a trick, I can’t quite figure out how he did it? When I first saw the shot, I thought it might have been due to a gust of wind whipping through the window? One way to fake it could be to put a little thing under one of the legs of the table, making it off balance, and kick it out. The chair moving away is more interesting. In any case, one possibility is that Grant was originally just trying to jerk the chair back with his foot but bumping his knee, accidentally, against the top of the table causing it to jump. Unfortunately, I have no idea how heavy the table is to allow this or not. Grant did look surprised but he may have also been freaked by the cameraman’s weird “yelp.” Then again, it could be paranormal - only Grant knows for sure, and never will confess.

– Dave

(Report comment)

Shawn -
you could not have said that ANY better. Although, I still believe in the paranormal and I still think some of those on this show are being honest. BUT, you are so right about Grant. I never realized he seems to always be the one with the greatest claims and evidence. Yeah, why is that camera only pointed towards his legs? (where the sheet mysteriously moved up his leg). Why is it only pointed in that direction? why not the whole bed, if that is what they were trying to catch? Bottom line, GRANT NEEDS TO GO! Also, wow: i never thought that it could be Grant who manipulated the footage on the Queen Mary. I have noticed tension b/w Grant and Jay at times. Even if the sheet incident, the table moving and other claims are legit. It seems Grant is always involved with the most profound and arguable evidence that is easier explained as hoax than actual paranormal.

I am amazed on how wrong i was. I thought this show was legit and they all seemed full of character and integrity. I am glad there are ppl out there willing to review evidence, b/c i easily tend to just believe what is shown to me. THANK YOU GUYS! So, that means, I could be wrong for all the ppl on the show. I hope that my first impressions of Steve and Jay will still stand up in the future.

(Report comment)

PLEASE CAN SOMEONE ANSWER THIS…
I've been so taken back by this evidence. it is much more clear cut than the IR footage. BUT.. In this episode where the lamp is moving across the table.. Doesn't this happen over a period of time? In fact, a few hours?? or atleast a half hour to an hour? This could not explain, nor does it make sense to have Grant seemingly pulling the cord? He couldn't be sitting there all that time or go back each time to pull the cord.
So in writing all that.. i could of just simply asked.. How long does it take for the lamp to 'mysteriously' move???

(Report comment)

They speed up the tape so it's difficult to tell, but from the other things we see on the tape it's clear that we're talking about a couple of minutes, at most.

At one point we see Grant lean forward and then lean back again, so you can see it's about the same speed as someone fast-forwarding a video tape. Also of note, if you mark the position of the lamp right before Grant leans into the shot (and blocks it) you will notice that the lamp stops moving for the entire time Grant is leaning forward because it's in the same exact place when he leans back in his chair again.

The general motion of the lamp isn't entirely smooth, but it's steady enough that it should have moved at least an inch during the time when Grant was leaning forward, but it didn't. To my mind it's about as damning circumstantial evidence gets, but unfortunately all our evidence *is* still just circumstantial.

(Report comment)

So the fact is this: We have more evidence of hoaxes than we do of things that can't be explained and could possibly be paranormal.

The bad outweighs the good, does it not?

So why do we still continue to give TAPS the benefit of the doubt when it seems like they have forfeited their right to be given it?

(Report comment)

J. -
I don't know. That is a valid point. Maybe b/c we want to believe they are legit. I am still hoping they are. (with the exception of Grant-he needs to go) but there is alot of evidence that they have presented over the seasons. they would all have to be in on it if the whole show is faked. someone would eventually come forward. it, in a sense is fraud. they are coming forward as a reality show as non-fiction. i hope they will stick with integrity over ratings.

(Report comment)

I hope this evidence goes mainstream. I am such a fan of the show, that i wonder if anyone can call Grant on this? or atleast has anyone brought this matter to anyone's attention on the show? producers? or other castmembers? I mean, this is very powerful evidence. The more you look into it, it doesnot seem to be a mistake. Grant is pulling that cord. i do hope he could come up with a good answer. all in all, i feel stupid that i had such faith in the show's integrity.

(Report comment)

Well, technically speaking we don't have enough evidence to support claims in either direction. We can lean, though.

(Report comment)

hey guys,

i thought you'd be interested in this… It is not much. But a little suspicious. I had friend requested most of the cast members from Ghost Hunters/TAPS on myspace. On Jason's page I left a comment respectfully asking if someone could provide me with any answers or help in debunking or proving the mytrles plantation incident with the lamp moving. I then went on to say, I do not think that anyone is guility of anything but am really confused as to why it seems that Grant was involved either as an accident or purposeful.
I wrote it at night around 11pm, by morning I was deleted (about 8-12hours). What bothers me is that I was very professional, very respectful and even did NOT accuse anyone, nor was I being Judgemental. Atleast I didn't think I was.. but I did express my concerns and suspiciouns. So, that to me, makes it more obvious that they are fully aware of such.. Also, they must have some kind of PR machine monitoring all the forums and comments.

(Report comment)

to actualy watch the scene (shown on SciFi) go here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lhW31xlKNw&feature=related

pay attention to 1:20 and then at 1:57

(Report comment)

At about the 1:57 mark, if you look really closely you can actually see that lamp chord, which is now aimed towards Grant rather than the outlet, slowly moving as if being tugged.

It's so funny because while Jason is pondering why they got into the field and how they've burned bridges because of what they know to be true, Grant is sitting there tugging on a lamp chord, faking evidence under everybody's noses.

Marc - I am not surprised at all that your message got deleted. This has happened numerous times on the TAPS message boards that you would think at some point the TAPS faithful there might start to question it (but then again, when you see the number of people with avatars that have things like "I Love Jason Hawes" and "Grant's a Cutie" splayed all across them, it's easy to see why they don't).

(Report comment)

Two thoughts: (1) It could just be the lighting/darkness but it doesn't even look like the same tablecloth. The day before and after the incident the tablecloth looks like one of those delicate doily(sp) looking things, but that night it looks to be a smoother surface….. Again, it could just be the lighting that night. (2) SURELY, whoever is doing the 'tampering' could do a better job. Jason sitting next to the lamp is just way too obvious.

(Report comment)

Of course, I meant Grant sitting next to the lamp, not Jason.

(Report comment)

guys,
you are not going to believe this.. it may have been my repeated comments that i left on jason hawes myspace page, some deleted, some not…or by chance, he just so happened to read this one… first, i will admit, i was harsh and unfair in what i said. but in sum i said "i cant believe you guys would chose ratings over integrity, i have lost all faith in the show. Grant needs to be fired b/c its obvious he has faked evidence such as the myrtles lamp that moved…etc etc."

So, to get to my point..i actually spoke with the man himself, jason hawes. i was quite suprised, but none the less, it was him. But I atleast FINALLY got their version of the story and was he adamant about it… in fact, he seemed very upset and frustrated. he said he went over that footage at every angle with every camera. and it seems that it was just the edited footage that had made it look like Grant was pulling the cord. (altho he did not say this, but it is still possible that grant pulled the cord b/c maybe he missed something.) I am sure, beyond a reasonable doubt, that at the very least Jason and TAPS either are unaware that Grant did something OR he really did not fake the lamp moving.. I know there will be others that hope we could see the entire footage, we could only hope so. But, I do feel very strongly now, that Jason was telling the truth.. maybe Grant was doing something at that moment that made him look suspicious, add in edited footage and it'll look faked.. So, i thought it be best and only fair to extend Jason Hawes rebuttal as sincere, honest and very professional..

(Report comment)

Marc,

Did you post him a link to this blog so that he could at least see that it's out there and being discussed by many others? I think if he saw that he might come on here to write a rebuttal (much life Chip Coffey did over on the PS posting) or publicly make a statement on his My Space blog, etc. My thinking is that he figured by sending you an email/PM off the site it would quiet you down and hopefully ease your doubts.

Honestly, his explanation to you really doesn't make much sense from where I'm sitting. How could the editor make the lamp chord pop out from behind the frame and then run up to Grant's side? It could be that Grant did it without Jason knowing it (which I hope was the case), but even so he's had to have had it pointed out to him sometime before you posted your comments on his page. Looking at the footage it's so plainly obvious and considering that millions of people have watched the episode, someone somewhere had to have caught it back when it first aired and sent TAPS an email about it. At the very least, you know the editors at Pilgrim undoubtedly saw it when they were piecing it together.

Good job in getting him to at least respond Marc. Let us know if you get any more follow ups as I'd be curious if he ever comes back to you with anything else.

Shawn

(Report comment)

Hi Shawn!

i just wanna explain a feww things.. i tend to take ppl at their word. b/c mine is as truthful and honest as i could get. i am a flip flopper tho.. b/c i was a huge fan, read the stuff on the website, became a devastated fan.. i joined the Scifi.com/ghosthunters forum… i now realize that it very well may not have been Jason writing to me on myspace.. even tho it was his profile. basically, in reading everyone's replies here and on the forum, i came back down to level ground. i really touched alot of nerves and feel horrible about it. some ppl don't even believe me. and i actually heard alot of what you said.. about many ppl trying to contact him and he never responds to anything, altho sometimes will and will be distraught in his reply….

also, shawn, im sorry if i confused you with my first response on him writing me.. i would like to say, i DID ask his permsision to say we spoke. he did agree. i wouldn't have otherwise. im new to this stuff, really i am. i believe in ghosts but never took a step in trying to question evidence and now find it very interesting. yes, his response really wasn't much. atleast i am positive about one thing… he is 110% aware of this controversy surrounding Grant and this footage… b/c the way he stuck up for him…

on the other hand, even tho i asked and he said yes.. to the matter of me somewhat 'publicizing' our brief interaction.. i did NOT say which website i was going to post at. ALTHO.. in my repeated comments that i left him.. in almost these exact words, i said… "not only have i joined the scifi.com forums, almost on accident, i found http://www.skepticalviewer.com and it is a very professional, non-judgemental, sincere and interesting discussion based on this tv show"
so at the very least other ppl reading his comments on his myspace page read where i am "literally" coming from…

(Report comment)

Marc-

I too want to believe there are paranormal phenomena in this world. I'm sure it was Jason that you spoke to and I'm sure he does feel horrible about the situation. If you think about it he has been in the paranormal research field for 20 years. Jason doesn't want his credibilty to be shot. Hopefully Grant did not pull the chord closer to him. I just wish Grant and Jason would have a show about all of the things that have came into question and tell us there side of the story.

Anyway, keep up the good work Marc. It is because of people like you and everyone else posting on this site that keeps paranormal researched honest. There are many researchers out there that claim that everything they see is a ghost.

(Report comment)

You know Marc, I think that it's not just TAPS and Pilgrim Films who would rather not recognize this evidence but also the TAPS faithful, who I think would almost see this as being an attack on their faith (in an after life at least). I've noticed that many, many people are putting stock in what GH offers about the possibility of an after life (much like Logisti pointed out) and for them to see something like this, it could shatter their more than just their loyalty to the show - it could cause them a loss of hope.

I've seen this with my own wife who recently lost her mother and grandmother with in a month of each other. Since then she has taken a stronger interest in the paranormal and shows like GH and GHI, almost as if they offer some kind of reassurance that there is something beyond the grave. I know she is still skeptical of everything she sees on the shows (and most often she never really accepts what they try to pass of as evidence), but there's still a vulnerability there and I try to be mindful of it.

My first instinct when I started suspecting GH of presenting bogus evidence was anger for fear that it would damage the credibility of paranormal research. Now I think it goes deeper. People WANT to believe. And if TAPS is manufacturing ghostly apparitions for the sake of ratings, then it really doesn't make them any different from supposed psychics like John Edwards and Sylvia Browne who prey upon those who are grieving (especially if they faked the apparition seen behind Steve at the Gibbons home considering the teenage daughter was still mourning the loss of her mother).

Shawn

(Report comment)

The skeptics are certainly making a bold attempt to debunk the debunkers.

(Report comment)

Shawn-

You are absolutly right. Once people's faith is questioned they tend to lose interest in everything. People as well as me want to think that there is something out there after we are gone.

I too have no regard for John Edwards or Sylvia Browne. It makes me sick to my stomach every time I see them.

Paranormal research has been an underground and taboo thing for many years and has finally came into main stream media. If GH and GHI are faking spirits and EVP's it will push research back to the stone age and will never have any credibility. I for one hope that is never the case.

(Report comment)