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The Priest Who Wasn't There–Or Was He?

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9:06 am
August 11, 2009


Oubliette

Igloo in NJ

Lead Investigator

posts 574

With recent discussions about some strange events or sightings possibly being attached to traveling exhibitions, I'd like to add a very weird experience that my husband and I had many years ago. Now, I will still say I have never seen an apparition because frankly, this could have been something normal that both of us just misinterpreted.

This happened when the Romanov Exhibition was being featured in Delaware.  It was very moving to see all the personal items of the last Imperial family of Russia, including their clothing and family photographs.  Particularly disturbing was a bayonet from one of the rifles of the assassins, with old blood clearly visible on it.  There was also the gorgeous coach of red and gold that was used by Catherine the Great and subsequent rulers, something almost worth the whole price of admission by itself.

Many beautiful icons also were on display, some of which were especially adored by particular members of the Romanovs.  It was while I was admiring a beautiful one displayed off by itself that I noticed a middle-aged priest standing very close to it with head tilted back and his arms locked together behind his back.  He wore the long, black cassock which almost reached the floor, and I could see the backs of well-worn black shoes.  His black/grey hair was very wavy and tumbled freely down to mid-shoulder length.  I only saw part of his chin as I stood just off to the side in back of him.  He stood stock still, then nodded his head (it may have been the bow noted below but as stated I did not see the front of him)  and then suddenly made for a doorway into the next (and last) exhibition room.  It was then I caught a glimpse of his face and saw he had quite a long greyish beard, as is/was typical of the old-style Russian Orthodox priests.  He looked like a normal person; none of the transparency often reported by people who believe they have seen an apparition.

Unknown to me, my husband had been observing this priest before I noticed him.  According to him, the priest walked through the room very deliberately, ignoring everything except for three particular icons.  I happened to see him when he was observing the final one. 

As the priest disappeared through the doorway and into the adjoining alcove, my husband quickly followed, wanting to ask him some questions.  I followed my husband into the alcove area, and saw him with a very puzzled look on his face.  The priest was nowhere to be seen.  He checked that room and there was no exit out of it save for the one doorway, where two people could barely pass through at one time.

I know that the priest never went by me when I headed into that last space, and my husband had followed the priest so rapidly that even if there were a hidden door in the alcove, he would have had to see the priest exiting.  This man had simply vanished.

My husband had gotten a much better look at him, and described him as looking "old" as far as his clothing was concerned.  The material of which the cassock was made (and I also observed this) looked worn and of an old-fashioned cloth and weave.  My husband noticed that his shoes, which also appeared worn, were the heavy old style brougham type.  Nothing like what any modern Orthodox priest would wear.

Equally noticeable to my spouse was this priest's actions at each icon–he would cross himself in the Orthodox fashion, bow and then look at the icon.  Upon finishing, he would cross himself and bow again.  This is of course the usual procedure when approaching and leaving an icon, so it was something a priest would have done.  We did not observe anyone else doing this ritual, at least while we were there.

From the exhibition store, we purchased the hugely big and heavy book containing the story of the Royal Family, their horrendous demise and also contained pictures of not only the objects on exhibition but many, many others as well.  While poring over it, my husband picked out the three icons that seemed to be of such importance to this priest.  All had been associated with the Czarina Alexandra and came from her personal collection in the Winter Palace.

Now to quell any doubts-no, this priest looked nothing like Rasputin!  Rasputin in any case was a monk, and would have worn grey as opposed to the black worn by the priests.  So it was not our imaginations running away with us.

To this day I cannot for the life of me remember having to move aside for anyone exiting the alcove.  As I stated, two people could not get by at the same time comfortly.  And my husband examined that small room and found nothing even resembling a door or movable panel.  Even if he did, as stated above the priest would have been seen exiting as my husband was following him very closely.

Since then, we have spoken to several Orthodox Russian priests about this odd incident.  They were not surprised in the least.  Their collective response was simply "These things happen.  We cannot explain it, but it is real."  The Orthodox Russian people are very religious and have their beliefs to an intense degree that I have yet to find anywhere else.  If one enters an Orthodox church, the effect is overwhelmingly mystical.  The icons, the Byzantine style paintings on the walls, the burning incense, candles and chandeliers provide an emotional and sensory experience.  I am not a religious person, but have to admit that the sights and scents of the church are very impressive.

Any thoughts would be most appreciated.  This is one of those happenings that stay with one over the years and are as crytal-clear in my mind as the day that it happened.

If 50 million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
Anatole France

11:24 am
August 11, 2009


Brenda Lee

Guest

One of the common threads to paranormal stories that I find most intriguing, is that the persons relating the story do not remember it as paranormal.  That is, the events took place in normal lighting, no one was expecting a ghostly event, the person seen was accepted as normal.  It's the twist at the end when you can't find him that makes it mysterious.

I can't explain your story, but I like it.  It's the fact that you were not seeking out the unexplained that makes it more believable.  Thanks for sharing.

I wonder if there are any other unusual stories told about this exhibit.

12:08 pm
August 11, 2009


HollyDolly

Investigator

posts 194

I really have no idea what to tell you.It's a stumper for sure. That this priest would be there to see the exhibt would not be a surprise, as I'm sure many people besides westerners went to see it, like Russians, Sebs,etc.

He could have been Russian or Eastern Orthodox.The Catholic Church has various eastern rite groups,like Ruthenian,Hungarian Byzantine(mom's side belongs to them),Chaldean,etc.It's possible also he belonged to one of these groups, and I think they use icons like the Orthodox maybe more than statutes

How he disappeared so quick, i can't say really. Sometimes people do disappear without you even noticing it.

Like you are in a store  talking to someone, say I'm shopping with my sister and we are talking,I turn away for a few seconds, and she's gone.Oh she's in the store, but somewhere else,off in another department.

How she got there so fast,I have no idea,but she's gone. It's possible he somehow managed to slip by you and your husband. Is this what happend,I don't know.

As far as him being a ghost,yes, it could be. There is in England the ruins of an abbey.I think it's called Leacock Abbey. Across from the abbey there is a place for buses to pick up and let off passengers.

Two men have been seen at the bus stop,one is I think a monk, and the other dressed like a servant or peasant. In anycase, they appear so lifelike, that bus drivers have actually stopped for them and wait for them to get on.

Like your priest, they are more solid than transparent. And like the priests you have talked to, I agree it's

something that happens, why we don't know, but it does, though it is very strange and puzzling to the observer. Catholic churches used to be like the  Orthodox ones you visited.

Of course many of them are I don't know what. In the old days, you had statues, and candles to light, many parishes are few on statutes and a lot don't have the candles with the poorbox,where you could put money to help the poor and then light a candle for your intentions. The tabernacle was in the front for all to see, and after Vatican 2, many moved the Tabernacle off to the side or where ever they decided to shove it.

The tabernacle is the home of God, and where they keep the blessed hosts, the red light on the altar signifying that God is present.

Oh there are older catholic churches , in small towns and in Europe, where you still find things like in the old days and still have that spiritual feel to them.

And they didn't get rid of the candles just because it was a fire hazard, they did it to throw out the old,and in with the new, as orthodox and byzantine churches still have them.

3:21 pm
August 11, 2009


alicat

Lead Investigator

posts 1215

Oubliette,

Thank you for posting such a well written and interesting account of your visit.  It's very interesting that both you and your husband both experienced such an encounter.  I did think Rasputin at first.  But Rasputin, even though he was called by some the "mad monk" actually wasn't a monk at all.  He was a self-proclaimed holy man who Alexandra thought was sent from God in answer to her prayers and who many believed saved her son who was suffering from hemophilia.  Even witnesses, skeptics and doctors thought he had an unexplained ability to stop the bleeding.  However, this was obviously not Rasputin.

I'm curious about one thing though.  You said you purchased a book containing the story of the Royal Family.  By any chance, while looking though the book, did you see any pictures that might have someone in them resembling this individual?

I have to say this is a very fascinating experience.  As Brenda said above, did you ever find out if there were any other encounters reported to the event location?

8:15 am
August 13, 2009


Oubliette

Igloo in NJ

Lead Investigator

posts 574

I appreciate the replies. 

@brendalee – You have made a very interesting observation and one that somehow never crossed my mind.  There is a difference between something strange happening, like the above, when one is not even thinking or looking for anything, and when people are actually actively trying to look for paranormal activity.  That is an important difference!  Somehow, having something just happen does give a whole new perspective regarding the event.  From now on I am going to pay more attention to the circumstances surrounding an experience and the purpose (or lack thereof) of the person or people to whom it happened.

@HollyDolly – I can remember the old Roman Catholic churches and how they were cleansed of all the beautiful statuary, paintings etc.  There is even a group that has splintered itself off in protest of this and have elected their own pope.  When I attended a wedding a few years ago the starkness of the Catholic church compared to what I remember as a child was startling.  It looked for all the world almost like a Protestant church.  Many Roman Catholics today miss the old decor (for want of a better word).

Raised as a Roman Catholic, the emotional appeal and surroundings were very evident.  As I stated, I am not religious but have always appreciated religious art and architecture as a specific form in and of itself.

That said, and despite all the display, nothing can hold a candle (pun not intended!) to any Orthodox church.  One thing I didn't mention was how the Orthodox church we visited took me back to ancient Byzantium and Constantinople.  The Orthodox churches, IMO, pull way ahead of the Roman due in large extent to this.  That mystical sense permeates the place.  Roman Catholics do not have icons, and the paintings are in a more standard Western art form.  In the other case, they follow the ancient Byzantine art, where the figures are more stylized.  Like good theatre, everything worked together to produce that strange air of mysticism.  Quite the experience.

That was a very interesting story regarding the figures outside the abbey in England.  Just shows that it does happen.  A bus driver stopping for apparitions is interesting indeed!

@alicat-No, in that book or any other I have ever read about Russia, including those on the Romanovs, did I see anyone like this man.  And thanks for reminding me that Rasputin was never officially a monk, but rather a self-proclaimed  "holy man" so common back then, especially in Siberia.  What an enigmatic figure he was!  A master manipulator and womanizer, yet he was able to become the Czarina's top advisor in things spiritual and temporal.  Nicholas did not care for him but never would go against his wife wishes.

Rasputin did not fool everyone, however, as evidenced by his assassination.  And today we realize that his ability to help Alexei was due largely to the fact that, unlike all the doctors, he was able to calm the boy down, reassure him and in doing so lowered the boy's blood pressure, which helped to stem the bleeding.  In this case, he did more good than all the doctors put together.

Wow, didn't mean to write so much but IF this priest we saw was something "unusual", I now understand how the strong emotions and attachments that exist in this faith can produce deep emotional feelings.  Many researchers feel this can lead to various aspects of a haunting, including apparitions.  And hence our very strange experience.  Probably he just vanished into the crowd, but there will always be that sense of mystery about this incident.

If 50 million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
Anatole France

1:24 am
August 14, 2009


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

Hmmm…a very curious experience. 

Shades of Resurrection Mary really.  A supposed apparition so solid that those that see her mistake her for living.  Well, until she mysteriously vanishes…much like your priest.

Well, three possibilities.  The first, there was an exit in or near the alcove and the priest simply left.  The second, the priest never entered the alcove and somehow the both of you missed him exiting the exhibit.  And the third…that the two of you saw something that currently defies rational explanation.

Without seeing the floor plan and the actual exhibit itself (locations of display cases, their dimensions, where the people were at the time, etc.), it is impossible to determine if the first or second possibility have any merit.  That third possibility…hmmm…no ideas on how something like that (full-bodied apparition, in color, showing awareness of its surroundings and exhibiting intelligent behavior) would work.  I cannot phantom a single theory on how that could occur.

What I did notice about the experience however, is the lack of "tell-tale" signs of paranormal activity that we have seen on various television shows.  There was no mention of it getting colder or a specific cold spot.  No mention of any sort of power drain, either from the lights or personal gear that people may have had with them like cameras.  Also, there were no sounds associated with this sighting.  No knocking or whispers.  I find it interesting that in cases like these, there is never any mention of these things.  It makes one wonder if these things truly do have anything to do with paranormal activity.

I did have one question about the experience.  You and your husband saw this priest during the day and in the light.  Did he cast a shadow?  I guess it would depend upon the set-up of the rooms and the lighting.  Yet…even if he did…I'm not sure if that strengthens the case or lessens it.  Odd, isn't it?

Anyway, beautifully written and thank you for sharing your experience… 

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

12:12 pm
August 14, 2009


Paul Anthony

Boston

Investigator

posts 45

 
Your very interesting story is well written with great detail.  However it is written from memory which relates to perceptions which influence how we remember.

Oubliette Wrote:

 I will still say I have never seen an apparition because frankly, this could have been something normal that both of us just misinterpreted.

The fact you did include what you observed could be characteristic to the temporal world as opposed to the spiritual world is more likely the plausible explanation. Because we all know Russian Orthodox priests do exist.

This happened when the Romanov Exhibition was being featured in Delaware. It was very moving to see all the personal items of the last Imperial family of Russia, including their clothing and family photographs. Particularly disturbing was a bayonet from one of the rifles of the assassins, with old blood clearly visible on it.

There are occasions when our memory often stores perceptual information in verbal form rather than as an image.

Did the bayonet really display real  blood. Or are you convinced it was blood because you know it was used by an  assassin and they kill people and there fore it must be real blood.  Or was it rust that looked like blood. Or was it artificial blood placed on the bayonet to enhance a visual effect of shock. 

It was then I caught a glimpse of his face and saw he had quite a long greyish beard, as is/was typical of the old-style Russian Orthodox priests. He looked like a normal person; none of the transparency often reported by people who believe they have seen an apparition.

Are you certain he was a  Russian Orthodox priest. Or are you convinced he was because it was a Russian Romanov Exhibition. Could he have been a Greek Orthodox priest. I can’t tell the difference they look the same to me.

As the priest disappeared through the doorway and into the adjoining alcove, my husband quickly followed, wanting to ask him some questions. I followed my husband into the alcove area, and saw him with a very puzzled look on his face. The priest was nowhere to be seen. He checked that room and there was no exit out of it save for the one doorway, where two people could barely pass through at one time.
I know that the priest never went by me when I headed into that last space, and my husband had followed the priest so rapidly that even if there were a hidden door in the alcove, he would have had to see the priest exiting. This man had simply vanished.

 Have you ever known someone who lost a child at the shopping  mall. They vanish into thin air. It only takes a blink of the eye. This could be classified as the number one disappearing act and the parents can’t explain how the child left there side.

My husband had gotten a much better look at him, and described him as looking "old" as far as his clothing was concerned. The material of which the cassock was made (and I also observed this) looked worn and of an old-fashioned cloth and weave. My husband noticed that his shoes, which also appeared worn, were the heavy old style brougham type. Nothing like what any modern Orthodox priest would wear.

You have just described my old un-married uncle Joe. He wears the same worn clothes un-shined shoes every day. If I looked in his closet I bet I could find shoes and clothing dating back to the seventies. Joe lives on a fixed income and does not consider anything related to bodily comfort  tangible or important.

Equally noticeable to my spouse was this priest's actions at each icon–he would cross himself in the Orthodox fashion, bow and then look at the icon. Upon finishing, he would cross himself and bow again. This is of course the usual procedure when approaching and leaving an icon, so it was something a priest would have done. 

 I would accept his actions to be of a Orthodox fashion, deeply involved in a religious belief or orientation  with conventional standards when viewing a religious icon.

Did you ask anyone else if they had seen The priest.
Do you know How many Russian Orthodox Church’s are in the city of Delaware?


4:54 pm
August 14, 2009


alicat

Lead Investigator

posts 1215

@ Paul,

I would like to answer one question that you put to Oubliette as we both live in South Jersey and I am sure she can answer any further questions as it is her post.  First, let's correct one of your statements.  Oubliette never said this individual was from Delaware or it's surroundings.  She merely stated that the exhibition was in Delaware.  That's like saying the exhibit was in New Jersey or Pennsylvania or Maryland.  There is no City of Delaware, City of New Jersey, City of Pennsylvania or City of Maryland however, there is a Delaware City.   So, if she meant Delaware City, she would have said Delaware City not merely Delaware.  And, for the record, there are 7 Russian Orthodox Parishes that encompass the Delaware area or, as it is called, the Delmarva.  One in Philadelphia, three in nearby Maryland (one as close as Baltimore) and three within very close proximity to where Oubliette lives and all are within a very reasonable drive to Delaware.

I'll leave the rest to Oubliette.

6:02 pm
August 14, 2009


Oubliette

Igloo in NJ

Lead Investigator

posts 574

alicat is right.  I have no idea where he might have been from.  There were people from many states, as we noted by the license plates as we walked through the parking lot.  I'm sorry if you got the impression that I thought he was from Delaware.

Your uncle Joe may have worn his clothes as you stated (yes, a sign he wasn't married!), but he is not a priest.  Every orthodox priest we spoke to had clean cassocks and if not shiny, at least decent, modern looking footwear.  They seem to pride themselves on their cleanliness.

I am familiar with the Orthodox method of worship but described it more fully here in case there are some readers who are not that familiar with its practices.

Please note that this is something that has been puzzling me for years.  I'm not claiming he was an apparition, and that's why it's under "Possibly Paranormal".  All I know is that to leave that room, he would have had to pass by me, and I know he didn't.  Maybe he circled around the alcove and went out behind me, but then my husband would have seen him.

So the mystery remains.  It is why I still claim to have never seen a full-bodied apparition.  I just don't know.  But to me one of the most important aspects, and one which Brenda Lee has brought up, is that the incidents where people were not looking for anything paranormal and something strange occurred that really present a whole different viewpoint as to what may have happened.  Nothing could have been farther from our minds.

As stated, every priest/monk we spoke to had the same answer.  Of course, that doesn't make it true, but shows that these deeply religious people found no grounds to question the occurrence.  I've simply posted it here as one of those life experiences that stick with one and will always have a ? in our minds.

If 50 million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
Anatole France

9:00 pm
August 14, 2009


Paul Anthony

Boston

Investigator

posts 45

alicat Wrote:

 First, let's correct one of your statements.  Oubliette never said this individual was from Delaware or it's surroundings.  She merely stated that the exhibition was in Delaware.  That's like saying the exhibit was in New Jersey or Pennsylvania or Maryland.  There is no City of Delaware, City of New Jersey, City of Pennsylvania or City of Maryland however, there is a Delaware City.   So, if she meant Delaware City, she would have said Delaware City not merely Delaware. 

Thank you for the Geography lesson…. Who the Hell cares…..What does that have to do with what she saw or thinks she saw.

Oubliette doesn’t know or she isn’t sure what she observed. Oubliette never said it was a real person.  And know where in my question did I say it was. I said the more plausible explanation is that she misinterpreted the experience.You have already determined it is an individual. I don’t mind you correcting me as long as you can explain how you know and what method you used to determine it is an individual, not an apparition.

 Oubliette   observed something she did not understand and she makes it clear it is possible that she may have misinterpreted the experience. The Romanov Exhibition being featured was in Delaware the experience was in Delaware the surroundings are in Delaware. You said, if she meant Delaware City, she would have said Delaware City not merely Delaware.  She said “”Romanov Exhibition  in""" Delaware””””Period.   The Romanov Exhibition  and it’s exact location is of no importance We are talking about a Russian Orthodox priest who was either real or a disembodied soul of a dead person .My question,.Do you know How many Russian Orthodox Church’s are in the city of Delaware? Is reasonable. A real walking talking Russian Orthodox priest From Any where Delaware could have been at the exhibition the same time as Oubliette  

7:20 am
August 15, 2009


alicat

Lead Investigator

posts 1215

Excuse me Mr. Anthony but learn to read and spell!  I merely answered a question you posted or don't you read what you write?  Don't like being picked on?  It seems you also need a reading and spelling lesson as well as geography.  Last time I heard, a Russian Orthodox priest could be described as an individual whether he was real or an apparition and Oubliette said she wasn't claiming it was an apparition.  Oh, forget it!  Your comments are nonsensical and not worth wasting my time.

8:48 am
August 15, 2009


Paul Anthony

Boston

Investigator

posts 45

alicat said:

Excuse me Mr. Anthony but learn to read and spell!  I merely answered a question you posted or don't you read what you write?  Don't like being picked on?  It seems you also need a reading and spelling lesson as well as geography.  Last time I heard, a Russian Orthodox priest could be described as an individual whether he was real or an apparition and Oubliette said she wasn't claiming it was an apparition.  Oh, forget it!  Your comments are nonsensical and not worth wasting my time.

I’m not going to argue with you. Because of your lack of immature behavior. Rather than criticize me  with reasoning you insult my character. You would rather ridicule or belittle a person than seriously examine an opposing viewpoint. You could have attempted to take apart my position using logic and reason. Instead you use ad hominem attacks, a common tactic used by lazy un-critical thinkers. 

After you posted your remarks I hope you didn’t …..Kick the dog.
 
 


8:49 am
August 15, 2009


Oubliette

Igloo in NJ

Lead Investigator

posts 574

@Revenant-didn't notice any shadow, but then we weren't looking for one.  That strange feeling we got only happened after he was gone.  Too bad because that would have been an excellent thing to look for (shadow).  It would have been interesting if he had been looking into one of the glass cases, where his reflection would have been seen.  It's just an experience that we still look back on with amusement and yes, awe.  If only my husband had been able to talk to him!

@Paul Anthony:

First, you jumped on alicat about Delaware.  But you are the one who brought it up in the first place:

Do you know How many Russian Orthodox Church’s are in the city of Delaware?

The location of the exhibit has no bearing on what we saw there.  I mention it only to let readers know where in the US we attended this and I thought that hopefully someone else might have done so as well.  Since I already stated there were vehicles from all over the adjoining states and even farther, it never once entered my mind about local churches, as that has nothing to do with my observations.  BTW, it was in Wilmington, just to the right as one crosses over the twin-span bridge and could easily be seen from the waterfront.  It was only half a river from being in New Jersey, it was that close to the border.

Did the bayonet really display real  blood. Or are you convinced it was blood because you know it was used by an  assassin and they kill people and there fore it must be real blood.  Or was it rust that looked like blood. Or was it artificial blood placed on the bayonet to enhance a visual effect of shock. 

If you had seen the exhibit, you would never even bring up this assertion.  This was not a sensationalistic presentation–like one we've seen displaying torture instruments through the centuries.  That's a totally unfounded suggestion reflecting on the State Hermitage Museum and the State Archive of the Russian Federation, whose exhibit it was.  These people have a great respect and even worship for the Imperial Family (who are considered saints by certain Orthodox churches).  To tamper with anything having to do with them would be anathema.

I am not that naive as to be taken in by fake blood.  (BTW, in my past my husband and myself used to do makeup and FX for theatrical productions, so I do have some experience).  These were not bright red spots, but the darkened  color of old blood in splashes on the blade.  Not rust spots, but the way blood would appear if the instrument were thrust into a body.  It went down the side of the blade in an irregular stream up to what was probably the full length that it was thrust into a body or bodies.  As my husband is in the medical field he would not be that easily fooled.  Why you even bring this up is beyond me.  It was disturbing to see–and made the terrible massacre all the more real to modern eyes.

It also had nicks near the tip where the murderers tried to penetrate the corsets of the Grand Duchesses.  Are those fake too?  I mention this to indicate the nature of the exhibit and to give a sense of just how much was on display.

You seem to "get it" that I question what happened.  That's why it's under "Possibly Paranormal".  You should already understand that it was his strange disappearance from the alcove that gave us pause.  The fact that his clothes and shoes looked old was something which only added to our bewilderment, since, as I stated, modern priests, whose cassocks are not made from the old-fashioned weave that this priest wore, do not look like they stepped out of the early 1900s.  He did–for whatever reason, we don't know.  It is just an observation that added a bit of mystery to the whole experience.

Other posters here have given their own opinions, both pro and con it being something paranormal.  That's just being skeptical.  But there is a difference between opining and arguing.  Please consider that "it's not what you say, it's how you say it". 

I thought it would be of interest to this board since apparitions-either looking very much alive or transparent-either attached to places or things have been noted for a long, long time.  Real or not, I find the subject interesting and thought others might also like to hear of it.  Perhaps if you come across an Orthodox priest, Russian or otherwise, you may want to ask him about this yourself.  I'll bet you get the same responses.

If 50 million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
Anatole France

9:11 am
August 15, 2009


alicat

Lead Investigator

posts 1215

Good points Oubliette.  It seems that the immature Mr. Anthony lives by the motto "Ignorance is Bliss"!  His comments certainly proved that point, didn't they?  I'm flattered he responded and proved to all to be exactly the "individual" I thought him to be.  Is that the best he could do?  Awwww. Cry

11:26 am
August 15, 2009


Stephen

San Jose, CA

Admin

posts 589

Guys and gals–

Let's try to keep things above the level of personal insults, OK? I don't want to lock this thread.

Stephen the Friendly Skeptic

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