My best friend, who is a level-headed, straight-talking gal recounted this story to me. I have known her for fifteen years, and she swears on her only child that it's true.
Back in the early 1990's, "Kelly" was dating a guy who attended Stetson University in Deland, Florida. He lived on campus in one of the older dormatories where she would frequently visit. One morning, after spending the night together, he awoke, showered, and left the dorm, headed for a morning class. She didn't have to be anywhere until later that day, so she took her time showering, dressing, and was in the process of making his bed when the closet doors flew open, and the hangers began rocking back and forth wildly, with a few of them flying out of the closet and onto the floor. I asked her very specific questions about the event, namely what sort of closet doors were they?… how fast did they open?… was there clothing on the hangers?…how fast were the hangers moving? She demonstrated by taking me into her bedroom and re-enacting the event. She opened the doors quickly (almost roughly). She then ran her finger across the hangers, causing them them to swing (a few fell to the floor).
I do admit, it seems fantastic, and I did receive the story second-hand. But Kelly is like a sister to me; she adores her son and I find it hard to believe that she would swear on his name. I really have nothing else to add except that she refused to visit the dorm room again, and future sleep-overs were held at her apartment.
For second-hand stories, or stories that took place in the fairly distant past, it's hard to say anything other than, "Good story." If it were a story where I had access to the person this happened to, or hard data about exactly when it happened, I'd try a few things. I'd look up local seismic records of that particular date to see if there was a mild tremor. If possible, I'd visit the apartment in question and see if I could reproduce the effect, maybe by opening the door too quickly and causing a sudden change in air pressure. In this case, I'd be interested if she kept a diary at the time and if she recorded the incident there, and if the details were the same then as in her later retellings. People's memories can and do drift.
All those things being unavailable, all I can say is, "good story." So… good story.
Reerob Wrote: I asked her very specific questions about the event
Try asking her what she was doing prior to the event, What she did the night before.
(I would have left the room without opening the door) Your friend’s ability to manage her fear does not seem reasonably valid, or truthful. It would have taken extreme courage to remain in the dorm. The incident is bizarre and could have been brought on by a hypnagogic state.
The fact your friend swears on her son’s name the incident happened. Could be a form of delusion, I am not implying your friend is mentally ill. This type of delusion is a false belief that persists despite overwhelming evidence or odds to the contrary. A value judgment regarding the logical support for the claim. Then again, people do see and hear things that are not there. Science can’t explain it.
I must agree, people can be prone to exaggeration, but I think we can rule out the hyponogogic state, as my friend claims she was making the bed when the incident occurred. I am new to this website, and simply wanted to make a contribution by passing this story along. Whether my friend was exaggerating or not, I get the distinct impression that something odd occurred in that dorm room. I would love the opportunity to explore the dorm myself, providing 1) she can recall which room it was and 2) we can gain access.
This house (which is close to where our group is located) has a fascinating history, and was featured on the the program "A Haunting". If you would like to read more about the home, you can click the link above, or simply type "Dunnam House" into your browser. The last time I drove by this house, there was (yet again) a sales sign on the front lawn.
Sounds interesting! Please let us know how the investigation goes. How do you plan to investigate it? What methods do you use to gather evidence?
I will be working with a team of experienced investigators, but this will be my first professional investigation, so I guess you could say I am truly an "investigator in training". As far as the teams' methods of investigation, I know they use the standard equipment for recording EVPs, and they also have night vision cameras, etc. I'm very excited, and hoping to learn a lot. I am also a bit nervous, hoping that I won't be too jumpy or embarrass myself .
Let me say that although I have had an intense interest in the paranormal my entire life, I have never actually had what most people would refer to as a ghostly encounter or poltergeist. I have, however, experienced very odd psychic connections with a few people during my life (but much of it would be explained as coincidence by a hard-core skeptic).
I suppose it boils down to this: No amount of photographic evidence, EVP's or testimonials will convince someone who is a true skeptic. Conversely, there are others who are so eager to believe, that even the slightest bump in the night is immediately labelled a "haunting".
As for me, I believe that there is more to this world than that which we can experience through our limited, 5 senses… but I want to see it first hand, and until I do, there will always be reasonable doubt. I believe that many on this board feel the same way… guess that's why we are all here.
No amount of photographic evidence, EVP's or testimonials will convince someone who is a true skeptic.
Well….you seem to be using the term skeptic to mean stubborn non-believer/denier? A "true skeptic" will let the evidence speak for itself. He'll examine it thoroughly and then make his decision based upon that evidence and what it shows. Testimonials won't impress me, but evidence captured via the scientific process in a controlled investigation will carry weight.
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Forgive my poor choice of words "true skeptic". I find that there are varying degrees of skepticism. When I refer to a "hard-core skeptic"… I am referring to people I have met who are so set on disproving something, that their explanations are often more incredible than the possibility of a paranormal event.
Being an investigator is being able to admit that, although most events can be debunked, there are some things for which we simply have no explanation.
My question is this: At what point does an investigator concede and declare something to be a paranormal event? To what ends must investigators go to gain so-called credible evidence? These events, by their very nature, are nearly impossible to prove using scientific method. How can we measure (in pounds, inches or gallons) something which is not comprised of physical matter and seems to defy all laws of physics?
In my humble opinion, I feel that there are certain people who, even if they had a close, personal encounter with a full-body apparition, would simply chalk it up to a lack of sleep or (as Ebenezer Scrooge once said), "an undercooked potato".
First things first. The original story of the Stetson Dorm Room.
I have a couple stories of my own. The first, visiting someones apartment in college for a study group. We were studying for an upcoming test when a couple of us were startled by a noise from the front closet. Being from Chicago, when I hear a noise in an apartment or house, I do not think "ghost"…I think rat. The girl who lived there just laughed when I said that. The building that she lived in was renovated into apartments. And, for some reason, there was a vent actually inside the closet. When the heat would come on, sometimes things would move inside the closet. She would leave the closet door open most times to warm the apartment. She had it closed because it was "messy."
Another friend of mine, his entire college apartment was slanted to the east. It was hard to tell really. One day, we came back from playing basketball, he put the ball down and it rolled, on its own, down the hallway, past the bedrooms and into the bathroom.
There are 2 morals from these stories. The first, you pay a ton of money for sub-par apartments only because they are close to campus. But the other moral is that paranormal investigators must "think outside the box." Any and all possibilities should be examined before the label of "paranormal" is used. Poor construction could be a possible cause for things moving in a closet or for things to move on their own. I'm not saying that either of these things were responsible for what supposedly happened in the Stetson dorm room, but the actual construction of the closet, the doors and the dorm room would need to be examined.
Now…
You go on to say that "hard-core skeptics" that you have met "are so set on disproving something, that their explanations are often more incredible than the possibility of a paranormal event." Yet you go on to ask "How can we measure (in pounds, inches or gallons) something which is not comprised of physical matter and seems to defy all laws of physics?" So….if I may ask…what sort of explanations have you heard from these "hard-core skeptics" that are more incredible than something which is not comprised of physical matter and seems to defy all laws of physics? Are their explanations also defying all laws of physics? If so…are these people truly skeptics or are they just trying to get a rise out of you?
But to answer your question about evidence, there is another thread that discusses some of our views on the matter:
Personally, I have found too many "skeptics" to truly be non-believers. There is a big difference, and it certainly is true that non-believers are just as close-minded as their counterparts, who take anything, including the purported powers of mediums, to be proof positive of the paranormal.
Revenant has brought up a good point re: sub-par buildings. I just thought that perhaps the hangars started to swing because someone, who may not have even been in close proximity, had walked over a not very stable section of the building. Maybe this vibration was passed along the floor and resulted in enough of a disturbance to start something hanging free (like hangars!) to start swaying. Just a thought.
As a skeptic, I just ask "Show me the proof". So far to my knowledge there has not been one verifiable incident that has been proven to be paranormal. Unexplainable, maybe. Many of us here have had a number of strange occurrences happen to them, yet we still remain skeptical.
IMO there has to be something going on which we cannot explain. Perhaps there are a number of explanations depending on the type of occurrence. As most people here know, I am a fan of Prof. Wiseman, who has taught me how easily our brains are fooled and how this marvelous organ actually creates a form of reality for us. BTW, I have recently read somewhere that Prof. Wiseman is planning to further investigate the Edinburgh Vaults, where years ago his research had yielded some very interesting results.
Guess what I want to say is that people who call themselves skeptics but are actually non-believers when it comes to hauntings or cryptozoology are doing themselves a big disservice. Our quest for knowledge should not be hampered in any way, as long as we try our best to apply scientific methods when examining any and all evidence.
If 50 million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
Anatole France
These events, by their very nature, are nearly impossible to prove using scientific method. How can we measure (in pounds, inches or gallons) something which is not comprised of physical matter and seems to defy all laws of physics?
"Seems to defy the laws of physics", but I would suggest they don't. Otherwise why are we using EMF meters and thermometers? These instruments themselves obey the laws of physics and can only detect variations that obey physical law.
So why does the coat hanger float in mid air you may ask? Well perhaps a ghost is holding it up! (or perhaps not but we'll go with the ghost for the moment) Who says the ghost has broken the laws of physics to do it? So we don't see objects floating around every other day? We know with superconductors and strong magnetic fields it's possible. The ghost could have performed this feat within the laws of physics, but in a different way than what we are used to.
Physics may yet explain everything, including ghosts. A very good reason to use the scientific method I would think. This is my hope, that ghosts are real, that there is life after death and one day we will be able to prove it. Until then, we are here to keep a skeptical eye on the research and investigations done by amateurs, to keep them honest. Kind of like peer review if you will.
These events, by their very nature, are nearly impossible to prove using scientific method. How can we measure (in pounds, inches or gallons) something which is not comprised of physical matter and seems to defy all laws of physics?
Seems to defy the laws of physics", but I would suggest they don't. Otherwise why are we using EMF meters and thermometers? These instruments themselves obey the laws of physics and can only detect variations that obey physical law.
So why does the coat hanger float in mid air you may ask? Well perhaps a ghost is holding it up! (or perhaps not but we'll go with the ghost for the moment) Who says the ghost has broken the laws of physics to do it? So we don't see objects floating around every other day? We know with superconductors and strong magnetic fields it's possible. The ghost could have performed this feat within the laws of physics, but in a different way than what we are used to.
Physics may yet explain everything, including ghosts. A very good reason to use the scientific method I would think. This is my hope, that ghosts are real, that there is life after death and one day we will be able to prove it. Until then, we are here to keep a skeptical eye on the research and investigations done by amateurs, to keep them honest. Kind of like peer review if you will.
Excellent point. There are constantly new breakthroughs in the scientific community making what was once considered impossible into a reality. Perhaps the so-called "ghost" (should they exist) did operate within the laws of physics…. but then again, maybe an entity which is not composed of physical matter does not adhere to the laws of physics…. this arguement could go on forever.
Bottom line… since labelling seems to be of such importance, I will label myself a CURIOUS SKEPTIC. Again, I have never experienced, nor claimed to experience a paranormal event, yet the field intrigues me. Why? Because I do believe this: we are arrogant in thinking that the only reality which exists is the one experienced through our LIMITED SENTIENT existence. Period.
It is curious skepticism which has led to some of the greatest discoveries of mankind. And as one poster above stated:
Guess what I want to say is that people who call themselves skeptics but are actually non-believers when it comes to hauntings or cryptozoology are doing themselves a big disservice.
I could not have said it better myself, thank you. And yes, perhaps spirits / entities / energy forms are able to operate within the laws of natural physics… perhaps there are variants on natural physics we haven't yet mastered. Technologically, we are not yet at the stage where we can comprehend it. Afterall, we struggled for hundreds of years with gravity
When I see an investigator poking around a room with EMF meters or temperature guages, it reminds me of the apes jumping around the monolith in the movie "2001 A Space Odyssey" lol. We know so little.
Excellent point. There are constantly new breakthroughs in the scientific community making what was once considered impossible into a reality. Perhaps the so-called "ghost" (should they exist) did operate within the laws of physics…. but then again, maybe an entity which is not composed of physical matter does not adhere to the laws of physics…. this arguement could go on forever.
Actually, I think I can end that argument pretty quickly. Name something here on Earth that does not adhere to the laws of physics. Better yet, provide evidence of a ghost not adhering to the laws of physics. Either way, the argument pretty much ends.
Reerob, I understand your point of view. Yet…before we start jumping into other realities or breaking the laws of physics, perhaps we should work within the confines of what we do know and what we can actually prove. Just like what Learjet's post suggested.
"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
Typed this on a notepad a while ago, but didn't get back to my computer to post it:
Disbelieve a personal experience? Maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't. As a skeptic I know I can be fooled, so I have to take that into account. I don't think it's unreasonable to recognize that.
There's one thing we agree on. No amount (well most amounts) of EVPs or personal experiences would convince me. At least the way that EVPs are normally gathered and analyzed. If you record EVPs uncompressed, in a Faraday cage, and with a high-quality backup recorder I might be more inclined to take it seriously.
In our defense, I don't think it's fair to give up on skeptics quite so easily. Yes, it's hard to convince us. That's the point. However hard is not impossible. We will pick holes in your methods, but we can be a valuable resource.
As for "unbeliever", I'll accept that mantle gladly. I don't believe. When investigating, I try not to have anti-belief either. You've heard me state my mantra before, but I'll say it again: I don't want to believe; I want to know.
What is a skeptic? The answer depends more then a little bit on who you ask. Defending the rational world from rising claims of nonsense; Applying common sense and the scientific method to the paranormal; Suspending judgment until the evidence is in. The implication being that skeptics should suspend judgment, but that many do not.
However, many times it is somewhat difficult to maintain in practice. We are always making judgments just to get on with our lives. There comes a point where the evidence (or lack of evidence) is such that a judgment is warranted. I am less concerned with how others define skeptics than how skeptics define themselves. I happen to be one of those skeptics who believe in nothing which cannot be demonstrated by the senses.
I have a question that I often ask myself, and I'd appreciate your input as well:
If the majority of people (including myself) on this forum doubt the existence of nearly all paranormal claims, why waste valuable time, money and resources investigating these phenomenae? When I think of the time and money I have spent researching, I could have earned my doctorate by now. Reasons for our curiousity can include (but are not limited to):
- You hope to expose charlatans and scams
- You were raised in a fanatically religious household, and have disdain for anything supernatural
- You have lost a loved one and wonder if life exists beyond death
- You have had a personal experience, and are looking for answers
As I stated in my previous post, I differ from Paul Anthony in one significant way: I feel that our five senses are limited and prevent us from perceiving other realities. For goodness sakes, when our sight, smell and hearing are compared to those of a cats, we seem downright handicapped.
What are your personal reasons for investigating the paranormal?
Actually, I think I can end that argument pretty quickly. Name something here on Earth that does not adhere to the laws of physics. Better yet, provide evidence of a ghost not adhering to the laws of physics. Either way, the argument pretty much ends.
Reerob, I understand your point of view. Yet…before we start jumping into other realities or breaking the laws of physics, perhaps we should work within the confines of what we do know and what we can actually prove. Just like what Learjet's post suggested.
An excerpt taken from the home page of this site:
this site was created as a haven for those who would like to have real, intelligent conversations and maybe come away having our preconceived notions challenged, our suspicions confirmed, or learning something entirely new every once in a while.
Challenging preconceived notions is the core of it for me. I don't think that ghosts exist, but as a skeptic, I know that I can be fooled– in either direction. (And if I'm wrong on that one, I'm still right.) I want my preconceived notions challenged, so that they're either defeated or strengthened. That's the only way I'll figure anything out.
At its best, this field can be a fascinating exploration of physics, philosophy, and human perception. If honest, well-meaning researchers come up with what seems to them to be irrefutable proof of survival after death, well, is it? I find that question important. Along the way, I've learned about infrasound, paredolia, and many other ways that people can honestly and sanely see things that aren't necessarily there. Unfortunately, I've also learned many new uses for string.
I'm not particularly interested in exposing charlatans, despite what this site has had to do. If I'd thought that the Ghost Hunters were faking evidence at the beginning, I probably wouldn't have bothered to watch the show in the first place.
I believe that if this field is to actually produce results, it must withstand skeptical inquiry. Out of respect for its importance, I try to be as skeptical as I can and subject each piece of evidence to the highest scrutiny I can deliver. Maybe, someday, we can build a paranormal science that can knock me on my skeptical posterior and really prove something.
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