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1:26 am June 5, 2010
| JM
| | JM | |
| Investigator in Training | posts 13 |
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Putting this here as it seems to be the only place I'm able to….I'm sure there's good reason for that, but it still fits. That and I went to the trouble to type this all out and I'm gonna post it, dang gummit. Anyway:
Star Jelly….you know, that goopy stuff that falls from the sky–it looks a lot like the ooze from Ghostbusters 2, and/or the stuff that made four ordinary, sewer dwelling turtles into color coded ninjas.
Primary query: Has there been any conclusive explanation for this yet? I've done some searching here and elsewhere. Reasonably certain its not been brought up here, google proved fruitless. I found a JREF thread on the topic, but it was….short, inconclusive, and devoid of skepti-epeen flame wars based on trivialities entirely unrelated to the topic. In other words: a find worthy of a page in cryptid lists in and of itself. But still lamentably not what I'm looking for, however freakishly rare.
Back onto topic…and I'll stop trying to be funny from here on in, I promise:
Because we can't conclusively say that _all_ the "star jelly" rains that have been reported(supposedly this was reported as early as the 1600s…I say "supposedly" is the key word there) are in fact the same phenomenon, let's use the 1994 star jelly fall in Oakland Washington as a base of sorts, just out of practicality.
Conveniently this is also the event that Unsolved Mysteries covered….and even more conveniently, I am able to provide linkage to said segment here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXbGEaWNh4k
The dead pets and sickness suggested here are suspect at best, I admit. One guy getting the flu and one old lady with a severe ear infection, and a few dead pets…isn't enough to suggest that this stuff is extraterrestrial virus pus, or a military bio weapon. Just diffusing that suggestion that the show made in advance so as to not waste time on it later.
The most common explanation…and really the _only_ explanation for this stuff is that it's airplane poo dump. It's not dyed bluish, which is indeed required of all airline poo–I'd also think that it would kind of smell like poo, unless there's something the airplane does to said poo to make it not stink…not being facetious there; if there's some process that does that, please let me know. That it was submitted to the FAA and they responded with "No it's not airplane poo"…makes it curious. Airplane Ejecta(the not-as-fun term for Airplane Poo) is indeed the closest and most sensical explanation for it, but it seems to be missing a few key characteristics of airpoo, which I've laid out above. Also, that it rained down on the town six times makes it even more puzzling.
I could jam with the possibility of a jetliner having its feces-bluing system break, or otherwise do odd things to its human waste on singular occasion, but that it was six times this crap fell…supercedes the 'weird crud happens'(pun very much intended) law.
And so there's the problem: if the airplane poo explanation is gone (and that's not to suggest that I've personally given up on it or am ruling it out, as I'm no expert on the subject, and can't have read all the material that exists on star jelly), then we're left with a real dilly of a pickle. The next best "natural" explanation I've heard is the "air force bombing exercises explode jellyfish, jellyfish guts fall on town" thing. Which is…yeah, about as dumb as it sounds.
Just to reiterate and clarify before I conclude this abominable wall of text: I am not suggesting the NWO Jewish Illuminati Reptilians dropped a toxic weapon on civilians or anything like this; they'd've come up with a better bioweapon than this. : ) And: I'm not at all convinced by the claims that the goo was toxic or disease bearing in any way.
Goopy stuff fell from the sky. If it wasn't airplane poo….what was it? Really, what I'm looking for here is "It's X well documented but not well publicized weather phenomenon" or "It's X well documented but not well publicized airplane toilet design flaw that made itself apparent in June of 1994…"
A genuine enigma that is beyond our ability to currently explain would be nice, but I know better than to put money on that particular pony. : )
If someone has demonstrable reason to believe that this stuff never fell out of the sky to begin with (like the 'raining fish/frogs' phenomenon that everyone _still_ thinks is caused by waterspouts) then….please, demonstrabate that reason to me. I'm posting this topic/question to get answers that I hadn't thought of or read about, not to stump folks.
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1:46 am June 5, 2010
| Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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I'm still pondering it…but in the mean time, here's an interesting article on the topic:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6840730.ece
It would be grand if anyone could track down any "real" scientific papers or results on it.
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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9:54 am June 5, 2010
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
| Moderator
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Revenant said:
I'm still pondering it…but in the mean time, here's an interesting article on the topic:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6840730.ece
It would be grand if anyone could track down any "real" scientific papers or results on it.
Not sure you need to go as deep as a scientific paper when you have someone do some "investigating" and find the same blobs (being a caustic soda for cleaning) at a battery factory:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/521/did-mrs-sybil-christian-of-frisco-texas-find-blobs-from-space-on-her-lawn
Or, since I know you like a bit more detailed analysis, I think this starts to approach what you might be looking for :)
Scientific American 2:79 November 28, 1846
A yellowish substance fell on Genoa, Italy, on the morning of February 14, 1870. It was analyzed by M.G. Boccardo and Professor Castellani of the Genoa Technical Institute and found to contain 66% sand (mostly silica type, and some of clay), 15 % iron oxide (rust), 9 % carbonate of lime, 7 % organic matter, and the rest water. The organic matter contained particles resembling spores, grains of starch, fragments of diatoms (forms of algae whose cell walls contain silica), and unidentified, cobalt blue globules.
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2:02 pm June 6, 2010
| Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Ok…"star jelly"….ok then…
JM's Primary query: "Has there been any conclusive explanation for this yet?"
Primary answer: No. The reason? The entire topic is awfully sketchy. I shall break down the star jelly into five categories.
"IT'S NOT GOOP, IT'S CRUD" – I think the prime candidate for much of the paranormal (ghosts, cryptids, UFO's, whatever) is misidentification. Nosfer's article about the incident in Texas reminds us of that. Throw in normal pollution, chemical spills, chemical contamination, illegal chemical dumping and a host of other things in that same vein and we start coming up with a few very reasonable answers for some instances of star jelly.
"THE CREATURE FROM THE BLACK LAGOON" – Nosfer was also kind enough to find a chemical analysis of an example of supposed star jelly. From looking at the contents and not knowing anything about where the sample was found…an educated guess would be from a body of water. Sand, rust, algae…not a big jump there.
What that particular substance could be is a very mondo-bizarro form of oxidation involving organic matter. Things like this can sometimes look very weird. I found a paper that just kind of touches upon this topic. It DOES NOT explain what that substance is. It simply offers some insight in how metal and organic material can interact:
http://www.horizonpress.com/jmmb/v1/v1n1/11.pdf
Also, I wouldn't worry too much about the "unidentified cobalt blue globules." For some reason, many people believe that when "science" tests something, they use the top of the line, highest tech equipment and techniques and use the top guys in the field. Um…yeah, that's typically not the case. Give me a couple of choice microscopes in a swanky lab…I could probably narrow it down considerably. Then again, a few million dollars of equipment always makes things a bit easier….you know, just sayin'…
"THIS AIN'T YOUR DADDY'S FUNGUS" For the article that I offered from above, detailing an incident in Scotland, and…for what I believe to be behind much of the "star jelly" type of thing…I offer "slime mold."
No longer thought of as fungi, it is it's own deal now. It is some of the coolest and most fascinating forms of life on Earth. If you ever want to "geek out" and get all "science-y" then do a search on slime mold and look at all the pretty pictures. Like this one:
http://waynesword.palomar.edu/slime1.htm
Why do I only suggest looking at the pretty pictures? The names of most slime molds are harder to pronounce than that volcano in Iceland and the articles are either written for young pups in grade school or for old dogs with PhDs. Not a lot of in between.
In any event, most people don't know what slime mold is, much less being able to identify it. Keep in mind, it can also grow at an insane rate if particular weather conditions are met. Most slime mold exist in single cells. Yet, if something triggers a chemical signal, they can aggregate into a great swarm. Once the weather conditions (among other things) change, the slime mold can quickly break down due to it's delicate structure. Definitely a good candidate. After all…people just assume stuff is falling from the sky because of the placement of the "goop." The possibility that something just grew there and so quickly doesn't readily occur to them.
"WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?" As we finally move to the Oakville incident…if one objectively looks at the information at hand, one certainly comes away with a raised eyebrow. We have the "end result" as in "weird goop" on the ground that came from the sky. Great. But really…we have little else to work with.
For example…as the story goes…some weird jelly type stuff fell from the sky six times over a three day span. Well…the first time, yeah, shocking and weird and I don't blame anyone (kinda of) for not doing all sorts of tests. But once we start getting into multiple times…we must start asking questions. Like how much does the stuff weigh? From that point, what sort of area did it cover? Then we test random points within that area. From there, we can ballpark the actual weight of all the jelly that supposedly fell. Was it 20 lbs? 200 lbs? Two tons? We'll never know. And…well….why the hell not?
I mean we're not talking Mongolia in 1602 here. We're talking the Washington in 1994. Where's all the scientific data? Don't give me some story about a lab tech at Washington State University. We have a foreign mass, supposedly, falling on the United States. Why weren't our best people on that? Where were all just the very curious science-orientated people? Just something very strange about this whole thing. I mean if something was falling from the sky and killing my dogs…trust me, believe this, know this for a fact…I would test that goop until the end of time. There isn't a lab in America that wouldn't get a sample of that stuff. I mean…, supposedly, it fell six times in three days. Should be barrels of that stuff lying around. But apparently…there isn't. Very, very strange…
"I THINK, THEREFORE, I LIE" – The last category is reserved just for the crazies and the liars. You'll see more of them in 2012…"The sky is falling!"
Ok…so…there's my take on "star jelly."
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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2:34 pm June 6, 2010
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
| Moderator
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Another "similar" occurrence (at least as far as being strange stuff from above) in the Annals of Philosophy Volume 11:
http://books.google.com/books?id=nhcAAAAAMAAJ&dq=&pg=PA466#v=onepage&q&f=false
If nothing else, these older books make for fascinating reads :)
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Legal: The content of this post is copyrighted and is intended exclusively for use on skepticalviewer.com It may not be copied, distributed, or redisplayed on any other site without the express written consent of the author.
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1:58 am June 8, 2010
| JM
| | JM | |
| Investigator in Training | posts 13 |
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Revenant said:
Ok…"star jelly"….ok then…
JM's Primary query: "Has there been any conclusive explanation for this yet?"
Primary answer: No. The reason? The entire topic is awfully sketchy. I shall break down the star jelly into five categories.
"IT'S NOT GOOP, IT'S CRUD" – I think the prime candidate for much of the paranormal (ghosts, cryptids, UFO's, whatever) is misidentification. Nosfer's article about the incident in Texas reminds us of that. Throw in normal pollution, chemical spills, chemical contamination, illegal chemical dumping and a host of other things in that same vein and we start coming up with a few very reasonable answers for some instances of star jelly.
"THE CREATURE FROM THE BLACK LAGOON" – Nosfer was also kind enough to find a chemical analysis of an example of supposed star jelly. From looking at the contents and not knowing anything about where the sample was found…an educated guess would be from a body of water. Sand, rust, algae…not a big jump there.
What that particular substance could be is a very mondo-bizarro form of oxidation involving organic matter. Things like this can sometimes look very weird. I found a paper that just kind of touches upon this topic. It DOES NOT explain what that substance is. It simply offers some insight in how metal and organic material can interact:
http://www.horizonpress.com/jmmb/v1/v1n1/11.pdf
Also, I wouldn't worry too much about the "unidentified cobalt blue globules." For some reason, many people believe that when "science" tests something, they use the top of the line, highest tech equipment and techniques and use the top guys in the field. Um…yeah, that's typically not the case. Give me a couple of choice microscopes in a swanky lab…I could probably narrow it down considerably. Then again, a few million dollars of equipment always makes things a bit easier….you know, just sayin'…
"THIS AIN'T YOUR DADDY'S FUNGUS" For the article that I offered from above, detailing an incident in Scotland, and…for what I believe to be behind much of the "star jelly" type of thing…I offer "slime mold."
No longer thought of as fungi, it is it's own deal now. It is some of the coolest and most fascinating forms of life on Earth. If you ever want to "geek out" and get all "science-y" then do a search on slime mold and look at all the pretty pictures. Like this one:
http://waynesword.palomar.edu/slime1.htm
Why do I only suggest looking at the pretty pictures? The names of most slime molds are harder to pronounce than that volcano in Iceland and the articles are either written for young pups in grade school or for old dogs with PhDs. Not a lot of in between.
In any event, most people don't know what slime mold is, much less being able to identify it. Keep in mind, it can also grow at an insane rate if particular weather conditions are met. Most slime mold exist in single cells. Yet, if something triggers a chemical signal, they can aggregate into a great swarm. Once the weather conditions (among other things) change, the slime mold can quickly break down due to it's delicate structure. Definitely a good candidate. After all…people just assume stuff is falling from the sky because of the placement of the "goop." The possibility that something just grew there and so quickly doesn't readily occur to them.
"WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?" As we finally move to the Oakville incident…if one objectively looks at the information at hand, one certainly comes away with a raised eyebrow. We have the "end result" as in "weird goop" on the ground that came from the sky. Great. But really…we have little else to work with.
For example…as the story goes…some weird jelly type stuff fell from the sky six times over a three day span. Well…the first time, yeah, shocking and weird and I don't blame anyone (kinda of) for not doing all sorts of tests. But once we start getting into multiple times…we must start asking questions. Like how much does the stuff weigh? From that point, what sort of area did it cover? Then we test random points within that area. From there, we can ballpark the actual weight of all the jelly that supposedly fell. Was it 20 lbs? 200 lbs? Two tons? We'll never know. And…well….why the hell not?
I mean we're not talking Mongolia in 1602 here. We're talking the Washington in 1994. Where's all the scientific data? Don't give me some story about a lab tech at Washington State University. We have a foreign mass, supposedly, falling on the United States. Why weren't our best people on that? Where were all just the very curious science-orientated people? Just something very strange about this whole thing. I mean if something was falling from the sky and killing my dogs…trust me, believe this, know this for a fact…I would test that goop until the end of time. There isn't a lab in America that wouldn't get a sample of that stuff. I mean…, supposedly, it fell six times in three days. Should be barrels of that stuff lying around. But apparently…there isn't. Very, very strange…
"I THINK, THEREFORE, I LIE" – The last category is reserved just for the crazies and the liars. You'll see more of them in 2012…"The sky is falling!"
Ok…so…there's my take on "star jelly."
*nod* That the government/CDC/FDA/CIA/FBI/XYZ/ASPCA/ADL _didn't_ freak out about a foreign substance raining down on American soil kind of led me to believe there was a perfectly natural explanation for it, suppressed only by the ratings-lust of the paranormal show animal. No one seemed to care in any official sense. But yet I can't find any explanation for slime precipitation, toxic or not….pollution stuffs sounds plausible, airpoo sounds ….well, less plausible given blue dye thing, but you'd think someone would have a site or a statement out there that went something to the effect of "This is dumb. This is simple, elementary Slimium Rainismus, you non-scientist rubes. Stop freaking out. _gawd_…" But I can't find that, with or without the attitude. : ) As I mentioned earlier, I did try JREF…and found that particular species of response non-existant. Urges me to check on the room temperature of Hell. : )
Even if it _did_ happen only once and it's sickifying effects are just due to people suddenly having a populist scapegoat for the ills they would have endured anyway….it's still puzzling…and even if it is a pollution symptom…what pollution symptom is it? Surely it's a rare one, or this would be reported in every suburb that neighbors a coal plant or oil refinery….or it would happen regularly around X Industrial Facility, at least.
Indeed there are other "Star Jelly" falls that are easily explainable, which is why I put in that disclaimer about using the Oakland Washington case as a loose base; not saying it _hasn't_ happened before, but it's a bit like Ball Lightning. In that it's a blanket term for what is likely a dozen or more very different phenomenon that share one or two key characteristics.
I'm both disappointed and relieved, so far. Disappointed in that I don't yet have an answer….and relieved in that I wasn't being stupid at not having found it. : )
And personally I was skeptical of the "six times" figure, too, but I had added too many wordy disclaimers to my original post as was…but…something was sent for testing to the FAA, and these private labs. And there are ….well, quite a bit of eyewitness testimony–enough to support that "something" slimey fell from the heavens at least _once_, I think. Eyewitness testimony is indeed the fossil fuel that stupid paranormal stuff runs on, yes, but it _is_ worth _something_, and it does pile up.
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1:16 am June 11, 2010
| Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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JM said: "*nod* That the government/CDC/FDA/CIA/FBI/XYZ/ASPCA/ADL _didn't_ freak out about a foreign substance raining down on American soil kind of led me to believe there was a perfectly natural explanation for it, suppressed only by the ratings-lust of the paranormal show animal. No one seemed to care in any official sense."
The "no one seemed to care in any official sense" resonated with me. I wondered "why?" As the story goes, both the FAA and the Washington State Department of Health got involved. So, I looked.
At the FAA site, I only clicked on about 18,000 links (which constitutes about 0.3% of the site) and found nothing. I looked at Washington State's DOH site…nothing. Even their Division of Environmental Health and found no record of it.
If one looks at the Unsolved Mystery clip provided by JM, the actual falling "gloop" seems to be a recreation for the show as opposed to actual film of the supposed event. I tried to find actual film of it. Nothing.
It seems very odd to me that no official record from a legitimate source can be found. Granted…and at full disclosure…my online abilities lean towards analysis as opposed to straight research. Yet, nothing very easy presented itself. All I found was paranormal/wacky world kind of websites basically reporting the same exact story and citing that Unsolved Mysteries clip as their main (or only) source of information.
In fact, it's almost starting to seem like the "Indian Rope Trick" type of thing. More info on that can be found here:
http://skepdic.com/indianrope.html
But…if push comes to shove and I must offer a legitimate guess to what could have happened to produce results told in the story of the Oakville star jelly case…I would offer two.
1) It's "airplane ejecta" as JM first offered. The argument against it is flawed…that the FAA stated that it wasn't and that it wasn't blue. First, I'm really starting to doubt if the FAA was ever involved. But, more importantly…the blue aspect. I will not pretend that I am an expert on FAA rules and regulations in 1994. I shall also not pretend that I know that even if there were rules and regulations on "blue poo" for commercial domestic flights…were they in place for privately owned craft, international aircraft, and military? And…even if the answers to all those are yes…in 1994 did all those abide by the rules and regulations? Did the commercial domestic airlines even abide them? What kind of data do we have that supports this or discounts this? No idea. But…we simply cannot accept the "it ain't blue so it can't be 'this' " type of argument without statistical evidence.
2) More extreme…crop-dusting gone wrong. Before one begins to dismiss this theory…hear me out. Supposedly…jelly fell from the sky like rain. Multiple times. Extremely odd. I do not know the area of Oakville, the surrounding areas or what it was like in 1994. If we are to believe the Unsolved Mystery show when it states that the gel when tested by Washington States DOH (which I can find no record of), it showed to be of a microbiological media that had a bacteria often found in the human digestive system. So…here's the theory: An experimental fertilizer is crop-dusted (dropped from a small plane) on a particular area. As in every horror film that involves "science"…something goes horribly, horribly wrong. Something in the atmosphere changes fertilizer to a gel type substance. Residual elements remain in the clouds and produce further "rain bursts" of jelly, just at a lesser rate. Highly implausible and riddled with holes and problems…but, it's just a theory.
But over all…I'm just starting to seriously doubt the entire Oakville incident…
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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10:24 am June 12, 2010
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
| Moderator
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Not Jelly, but on Discovery tonight (12 June) at 7EDT there is a Weird or What episode that looks at ice falling from the sky. I recall that they go into the possibility of aircraft as a source both in frozen effluent from the lavatories (I can't recall for sure but I think lack of blueness is considered) and just as ice cracking off wings etc.
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