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12:39 am January 3, 2010
| emma
Investigator in Training
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Nosfer said:
…if you're gong to be skeptical, be skeptical on all fronts, not just toward the side that favors your beliefs..
…if you are truly a skeptic, you might want to consider all the facts before jumping to conclusions…. since other information was offered which can be tested, let's test it and verify.
Nosfer, I have finally read all of this thread, and I have to say, I don't think that this is an entirely appropriate response. What Kira is offering here isn't "facts." It's interpretation. And quite outlandish and unusual ones at that. I don't mean to make any claim to the veracity of her statements, and I don't need to: none of this is independently verifiable. There is no "test[ing] and verify[ing]." The participants are engaging in useless conjecture based upon their own biased experiences and their admittedly inexpert knowledge.
Repeatedly in these forums I see people suggest that so-called "skeptics" should be skeptical of everything, including any belief in the merits of logic and empiricism, that they should not dismiss these kinds of claims outright (again, i'm not making any kind of judgment as to the truth of these claims), as if to do so is to engage in some sort of hypocrisy. I think it's important that we are careful of this slippery slope- I'm not sure anyone here is a philosophical skeptic; that is, most of us do not subscribe to the notion that there can be no truth statements whatsoever. Otherwise, why would we bother? We are scientific skeptics- we believe that claims should be based upon verifiable information, and subject to the rigors of critical thinking and systematic investigation.
I don't see anything "verifiable" going on here.
I could be wrong. You may actually be a philosophical skeptic. If that is the case, we are opening a whole can of worms that renders pretty much everything you've written completely inconsequential.
I'm sorry for picking directly on you, Nosfer- these comments are really much more general than personal. I think it's important that we keep our eye on the ball. What exactly is going on here? We have a woman who clearly is looking for answers, attention, and validation. And as self-professed skeptics, who expect information to be rational and verifiable, we cannot provide answers to these kinds of claims. Let's just be honest about that. If she needs help (whether it is psychological, medical, spiritual, social, or what have you), I'm not sure this is the appropriate forum to be offering it. While I appreciate Kira's willingness to share her experiences, and delight in her sweetness and good nature in the face of our questions, I wonder of her motivation in coming to a skeptic's forum for answers to her claims. And I wonder of the skeptics' motivation in trying to provide them.
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12:43 pm January 6, 2010
| Nosfer
Moderator
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Nosfer, I have finally read all of this thread, and I have to say, I don't think that this is an entirely appropriate response. What Kira is offering here isn't "facts." It's interpretation. And quite outlandish and unusual ones at that. I don't mean to make any claim to the veracity of her statements, and I don't need to: none of this is independently verifiable.
Emma, apparently you have NOT read all of this thread (and admittedly it's not an easy task!) Kira offered some interpretations, yes, but those interpretations were based on facts (dreams, recorded before the supposed events) The dream and whether or not it corresponded to an actual and subsequent event IS independently verifiable. Thus, my response was entirely appropriate. Her interpretation wasn't what was on trial, it was the given description and it's possible correspondence with a future event.
And as self-professed skeptics, who expect information to be rational and verifiable, we cannot provide answers to these kinds of claims.
Why not? If Kira says on Day 5 that she dreamed X on the night of Day 4, and on Day 26 we have an event that happens that she thinks is what she dreamed on the night of Day 4 then we can certainly test the description to see if it truly matches the event. Can we not? Some of her dream descriptions do still exist and are time-stamped. Since we did not all perish in a nuclear war before 2009 (a dream described much earlier than that date) I have to assume that clairvoyance was not in play. Evidence presented, evidence tested, evidence refuted.
As information was gathered about the dreams, and of the number, and of the "hits and misses" it was apparent to me that there was no foresight taking place. Pretty much the same conclusion that some here were jumping to immediately, but instead of basing my conclusion on initial beliefs such as "you need psychological help", I based my conclusion on testing the evidence. Is that not what a skeptic does?
Imagine an earlier time, someone comes up with a totally outlandish idea that everything does NOT revolve around the earth…outlandish, wild, unusual…should it have been rejected based upon preconceived beliefs?
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4:13 pm January 11, 2010
| Nefri
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emma said:
How about you start a thread on here called, "Kira's Visions," and post any new ones you have on there whenever they happen? With as much detail as possible. Then we skeptics can see for ourselves whether your "visions" have any predictive value, whether they are detailed, whether they are verifiable.
Emma,
This is what I did at the IANDS website for 6 years. Recording every dream, and they kept it in a database online so they and others could watch to see what happened. Many other people also recorded thier dreams. It was a great resource. Since then the database was taken down as the group focused on near-death experiences. And honestly, paying so close attention to your dreams takes alot of time and energy. I am just not so interested anymore. Anyone who has worked on lucid dreaming knows it really does take some focus. Its someone else's turn now.
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5:39 pm January 11, 2010
| Leslie
Investigator
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Nefri,
I understand that keeping track of your dreams (visions) would take a lot of time and effort. Don't blame you for not wanting to go there again. Perhaps if you had one or two that you thought were good to share with us- just for 'fun'?
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7:37 pm February 4, 2010
| Nefri/Kira
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Leslie said:
Perhaps if you had one or two that you thought were good to share with us- just for 'fun'?
Leslie,
What I mean is that to have these dreams, I kinda have to be paying attention to dreams…. like having a dream diary on the bedside and a pen, ready to wake and write things down as soon as I dream them. Also I have found that to really remember the dreams very well, I need to be able to lie perfectly still while I recall them before sitting up to write them down. I think I have at least temporarily lost interest in the dreams, because at this point I am not sure how they can help anything or anyone. I will tell you that recenly I had a dream that I just happened to remember that the Air Force One crashed but it turned out the president was not on it. This dream didn't have that "predictive" feel to it like so many I have had, but I thought it was interesting enough to mentally note anyhow. In all fairness, I have worked at a company that deals with that aircraft in the past, so it's still likely its just regurgitated brain garbage. But still it was interesting enough to remember. I remember years ago having a dream about some woman being pushed into the back of a red pick-up truck, tied, and driven down some dirt road. I can still describe her exactly. Now was this a possible real event? I have no idea. I also don't know what state it was in. I wouldn't know who to contact or even whether or not they should take the vision seriously. So it was kinda useless.
The dreams / visions are something that I have not found useful yet. Not sure what to do with any of it, and honestly did all I could by documenting them for testing. In all those years, 6 total, dreaming at least twice a week, only 3 were worthy of note, and only one was exact. That one exact one convinces me that there is something about certain dreams that does reach beyond the normal and the personal. Maybe information somehow gleaned from the collective unconscious. That dream, for me, was the goal of that long experiment. I know it is possible to get information "from beyond", but the question now is, what's the method? Waiting around for dreams about random events is not practical. It sounds like Shamans have more exact methods, but since shamanism is pretty much foreign and culturally based, its kinda hard to see what they are doing, why, and what the results are. Surely there have to be studies somewhere. I know there are many ancient writers who talk about divination. It would be good if those techniques could be tested.
Its kinda scarey to pay such close attention to your mind. You never know what you are going to find in there. I think thats why so many people just decide to write all this off as silly or impossible.
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1:03 pm March 2, 2010
| old guy
Investigator in Training
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Kira said:
For whatever reason, I have had more paranormal experiences than I can possibly count or remember.
I've only just started reading this thread, and I'm not interested in "grilling" anyone. What I am interested in is tangible, empirical data. Anything else is speculation, conjecture or perhaps faith. Yes, I said faith. I have faith. But as a technologist, I want and need more. Measurable, repeatable, hard evidence. Proof.
So please for give me if it's already been asked, "Prove it?"
And it's not fair to say, "Disprove it." since you're the one that made the claim.
I know that, eventually, all my questions will be answered. Until then, this is just a hobby.
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5:24 pm March 2, 2010
| Lindy
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old guy said:
Kira said:
For whatever reason, I have had more paranormal experiences than I can possibly count or remember.
So please for give me if it's already been asked, "Prove it?"
And it's not fair to say, "Disprove it." since you're the one that made the claim.
Bravo Old Guy!…..well said.
Fantastic claims require fantastic evidence.
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8:39 am March 4, 2010
| Nefri
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So please for give me if it's already been asked, "Prove it?"
And it's not fair to say, "Disprove it." since you're the one that made the claim.
I know that, eventually, all my questions will be answered. Until then, this is just a hobby.
Well, let's see, how shall I prove that I have had like a kajillion paranormal experiences? Hmmm… I didn't collect any samples, I wasn't in a lab, I didn't have a tape recorder… I guess I can't! But that does not mean they didn't happen. I do have a couple witnesses from my most recent residence (haunted, at least while I was there rebuilding it. When I sold it, the new owners say they have not seen any ghosts).
Now, I am not sure that I believe that ghosts are dead people. But there is something happening in some places that we don't understand. I haven't written here yet about the "hauntedest" house I lived in. (I have lived in 19+ houses, only two of which were haunted). I also haven't been fair to the people asking about dreams, because some dreams I have not shared were really fascinating. I only shared the more mundane stuff. Its hard to be open sometimes.
So if this thread is about proving it, let's end this right here, because I can't prove it. If this thread is about relating the experiences, then we can move on to that.
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10:11 am March 4, 2010
| The Doctor
Lead Investigator
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Starting a thread on a SkepticalViewer site might tend to attract skeptical people.
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10:42 am March 4, 2010
| Nefri
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The Doctor said:
Starting a thread on a SkepticalViewer site might tend to attract skeptical people.
Skeptics welcome! I am just stating the fact that no evidence was gathered, and inviting people to chat about these "possibly paranormal" experiences.
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11:57 am March 4, 2010
| The Doctor
Lead Investigator
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Nefri said:
I am just stating the fact that no evidence was gathered, and inviting people to chat about these "possibly paranormal" experiences.
But you have presented evidence that you say validates your "possibly paranormal" dream by claiming your account of the attack on the U.S.S. Cole is a direct hit.
A comparison of the actual events and the statements you made from your dream can give us an idea of your interpretation of the term "direct hit", and if it is "possibly paranormal" or probably not paranormal.
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1:52 pm March 4, 2010
| Bobarino
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Well, let's see, how shall I prove that I have had like a kajillion paranormal experiences?
I would be satisfied if you could prove any one experience. A kajillion is not necessary. Prove one. But since no one has ever been able to that in the history of mankind, I am not holding my breath.
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3:45 am March 6, 2010
| Lindy
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Bobarino said:
I would be satisfied if you could prove any one experience. A kajillion is not necessary. Prove one. But since no one has ever been able to that in the history of mankind, I am not holding my breath.
Exactly! Prove just one. otherwise they are only a kajillion stories or personal experiences just like what GH and GHI have presented. To expect a rational thinking person to believe such sensationalism without a shred of real tangible evidence is ridiculous. Every GH or GHI episode begins with such stories but rarely does either come up with any evidence other than K2 readings or highly subjective EMF's……..it's nonsense.
Proof please!
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8:08 am March 8, 2010
| old guy
Investigator in Training
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So if this thread is about proving it, let's end this right here, because I can't prove it. If this thread is about relating the experiences, then we can move on to that.
That's a fair suggestion. Otherwise you're just telling us bedtime stories. I got over wanting to hear bedtime stories a very long time ago.
The are a lot of folks out there conducting "investigations" into what they believe. Perhaps you'd do well to follow a similar path. As others have already indicated, you sort of jumped into the shark tank when you posted what you posted where you posted it.
Peace.
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8:16 am March 8, 2010
| old guy
Investigator in Training
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Every GH or GHI episode begins with such stories but rarely does either come up with any evidence other than K2 readings or highly subjective EMF's……..it's nonsense.
LOL! Thank-you. And why, in all of creation, do "investigations" have to be done IN THE DARK?!? Are spooks afraid of the light??? Instead of wasting the money on a Binford K6000 Ghost Investigation System, Why not buy a decent flashlight? Then, with all the money you've saved, you can buy BEER for all your fellow investimigators. 
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5:02 pm March 10, 2010
| Lindy
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Nefri said:
Well, let's see, how shall I prove that I have had like a kajillion paranormal experiences? Hmmm… I didn't collect any samples, I wasn't in a lab, I didn't have a tape recorder… I guess I can't!
Yes, I understand your dilemna. Well hmmm, let's see…………………here's what you do. Since you have had so many paranormal experiences in your lifetime, from now on wear a helmet cam. I know, I know, it may look a little ridiculous, I mean when your walking around in Wal-Mart or laying on the beach but you can just tell everyone that you lost a bet and you'll get used to it eventually. You may need to remove it sometimes like when you're in church, at the movies or a ball game but you can hold it in your lap at the ready for the next encounter. It may be a little uncomfortable at night when you're trying to sleep but it may just be the price you have to pay to prove that your experiences are real. With a kajillion of them in your past you are sure to have more and if you are prepared they should be very easy for you to document and to quote The Doctor, they should be as "sitting ducks". Think about it, you could show GH how it's done.
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3:43 pm March 16, 2010
| Awaba
Investigator in Training
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