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8:54 pm November 8, 2009
| Kira
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alicat said:
Hello again Kira,
Thanks for posting in this in the forum. Interesting reading especially after reading your comments and the subsquent discussions in the GH Halloween 2009 Special. Here's one from November 4 (although there were other prior to and after) which brought you to the forum.
Kira @ 11:03 am
I have has/seen paranormal things all my life, including seeing "ghosts", getting messages from spirits, having documented dreams of the future that came true (I was part of a dream study), I have seen aparitions that friends also saw, and I have even watched a UFO (with my entire family and some friends) that stuck around for 45 minutes! Both my mother AND my father were mediums when I was young, and they were part of some Edgar Cayce school in the 70's. I have lived in two houses that I will not hesitate to call "haunted". (I have moved 17 tmes.) I tell fortunes for a living. All this, and yet I am very VERY skeptical about what people term "paranormal". And when these things happen you DO tend to wonder whether you just saw what you think you saw, or if you are just imagining things. It can be very confusing for a long time. It takes a while to sort thse experiences.
And then this comment in the GA March 18 recent comments section on November 7:
I am in love with Zak. I must confess. The more I see him chasing invisible ghosties in those adorable artsy black clothes, the more I cannot resist his awesomeness. Seriously, he is now my pretend boyfriend. Mrs. Zak Awesomeness — thats me! And those other two can live with us too. They can do the dishes. I LOVE YOU ZAKKKKK!!!
You can understand my skepticism, can't you?
Oh sure! I completely understand. Both those posts are so true… I gotta be honest, I love the new national pastime of watching ghost hunting shows. The first one I saw was GH, and I was just freaking thrilled. I thought maybe finally the world would see some of the stuff I had seen! I would call my hubby in to watch them with me whether he liked it or not — and then after a couple weeks I saw that infamous 2008 live GH episode and was so hugely disappointed. Then I found this forum and now I love to watch GH so that I can find thier faked evidence. And of course I watch GA, and the more I watch it, the more impressive Zak is, just as a showman. The recent "hand shadow" thing was obviously fake, but I am so impressed with him being able to keep a several hour live broadcast interesting and at least not OBVIOUSLY fake — plus the muscles, it just makes me weak :). Zak is an utter doll. Except when he wears that bollo hat. Bad.
But sure. I have absolutely no problem with anyone disbelieving my experiences, because they are hard for me to believe myself! I have no problem with you guys completely picking my stories apart. I also have no problems looking for alternate explanations. This particular story is one of my top 5 because someone else was there. It is the most easily verifiable for ME. Well to be honest its the second most verifiable one, but the first one would be less meaningful to you guys for various reasons.
Anyhow, let me state for the record: I am not religious, I am not a "pagan", I am not into random "new age" stuff, I used to work for NASA (8 years) so I am at least well educated and my mind is suited to a scientific environment, I am college educated (not that college is worth much, but it does say something for stamina and non-craziness), and I have the presence of mind to try to figure out where these experiences come from, and how to best use them for the benefit of myself or other people.
But question me. Absolutely. I doubt I will be able to give any concrete proof of any of these experiences (except for references in a couple cases)…. but maybe some of these things will sound familiar to others who have experienced similar things.
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9:19 pm November 8, 2009
| Kira
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Stephen said:
Since you mentioned that you have mental tests every eight years, could you provide a little more detail? What kind of tests are these, and who evaluates them? I have no reason to doubt your sanity, just curious since you brought it up.
If such a thing had happened to me, I think I might try asking my relatives for photographs of the house and its surroundings around the time of your visit, if they had any. Were there any trees at all near the house?
Hi Stephen –
When I was in college I actually submitted myself for psych testing because I honestly wanted to know if I was just out of my mind to have experienced some of this stuff. I went to a campus psychiatrist, told her a few of the things I had experienced, and she said it sounded strange to her. So she agreed to test. It was a long several hour list of questions, like "Do you hear voices in your head that tell you to harm others?" and such. I answered them all honestly… and turned out I was jsut a normal run-of-the-mill mind. This was a standard test. Not sure if the University would still have it? Its been about 10 years.
Then the next test I had done was in Hollywood (yes, here comes another crazy story, my life is FULL of them). Some producers came across a photo of me on Yahoo along with my hobbies listed as astrology and palmistry so they contacted me to be on one of those millionaire dating shows. They had someone come and film me while I was on the phone with them (I guess to be sure the person they were talking to really was the person on the film). Then they flew me out there and had me go thru an entire day of psych tests and also a background check. The show ended up not being produced, but I was really relieved that once again I was found to be perfectly sane despite thier questioning my paranormal experiences and my "occult involvement" (astrology). This was about 4 years ago.
And then recently (last year), I went to a hypnotist (after getting certified myself in hypnosis). His name is Clinton Clay and like 95 years old. One of the best from what I understand. I told him all about these weird things I have seen. To my suprise, he believed me, and not only that, he talked about similar expereinces he had! I really need to go back to him again before he is gone. Anyhow, I consider that yet another test.
I can't stress enough how seeing this kind of thing on a nearly regular basis does make you feel a little crazy sometimes. Honestly, I think everyone sees these things, but we tend to talk/reason our way out of it, repress it, or just ignore it. But I won't do that, I want to know more. I want to understand where these strange events come from, what they are, why they happen. I am not convinced all ghosts are just dead people. I am not convinced all our dreams are meaningless. I am certain that psychology/symbolism plays a big part in things like Oiuja, Tarot, Palmistry and other divinatory methods.
Great idea about the photo of the house. I should get a photo, and I think I can easily. When I get it I will post a link to it. Its been years and years, so it won'thelp PROVE anything, but it would be neat for you guys to see that window I have been spouting off about. Funny, I am almost nervous about seeing it again. But I will. I just wrote my cousin in NM to get a photo. And I also just told her that Todd and I had a strange experience there. We have never told anyone in the family… I guess its time!
From what I remember, the only tree near the house was this huge old oak tree way out back at the top of a big hill. The landscape is flat there, and desert-like. There are far away mesas, but not many trees nearby, and absolutely none in the front lawn (which is very small before the wild horse field stars).
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10:02 pm November 8, 2009
| Kira
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Nosfer said:
Thanks Kira. You say you've had hundreds of experiences. Have you ever managed to document any of these, say, photographically? If that many were happening to me, I'd be carrying a camera 24/7…if you have taken any photos, can you please share?
Nosfer –
This is a pretty far reaching question, actually.
For the first 22 years of my life, these experiences terrified the crap out of me to put it mildly. My mom had become so petrified of these "spirits" or whatever you want to term them, that she defected from Edgar Cayce school and became ultra religious, which made it all the more terrifying for my sisters and I. My sisters saw this stuff too when we were young. The story is pretty dramatic, but I will just leave it at this for now.
My older sister was able to learn to refuse to see these things. She repressed them, ignored them, and just simply refused to talk about them. These days, she will talk about the things she saw when she was little, but she will not talk about the present concerning weird stuff. She has also become semi-religious. My younger sister, who had these constant paranormal events until she was about 18, will talk about the past occurances but is still absolutely petrified to even discuss the possibility of seeing ghosts, spirits, etc. now. Both my sisters mainly saw things in one of the two "haunted" houses I have lived in that I mentioned in a previous post.
Personally, I refused to ignore it all, but I was still scared to death. When I turned 22, I remember the very day I suddenly became unafraid of these things (well, much less afraid, anyhow). So at least for the first 22 years the idea of carrying a camera never ever came to me, nor would it have been appealing in the least, since i was not wanting to see these events/ghosts/whatever. Honestly, until I saw GH, I am not sure the idea of photographing these things ever entered my head at all. I guess I was more concerned with figuring it all out and making sure I was sane.
However, I have tried to *document* these things for years. I have kept written records since I was 10 of all my life events, including some of the paranormal things. I started keeping dream diaries when I was about 25. I have several years worth of those. These paricular documents are important because (another crazy thing here) I am often visited (?) by spirits (?) at night who tell me future events, usually of a nationl nature, and less often of a personal nature, and strangely enough, very often about Russia. I have never been to Russia and have no interest in that country, at least consciously.
Now, to try and be scientific about it, i also submitted dream records to an online research organization who would time stamp the dreams and keep them in a database for future reference. If and when the dreams came true, this would also be noted and timestamped. I believe I did this online documentation for 6 years, and then the organization took down the database for whatever reason. It was very sad, all that work for all those years lost. I am sure someone has that database there. The organization is a near death group (I have actually nearly died 4 times, and have had some "afterworld" experiences). The web address is http://www.iands.org/. Now that I think of it, I do have archival copies of most of these posts on a hard drive that my computer refuses to access — I might be able to get at those with some work. Fearing the site might dump all the records I had backed them up myself. But because these are now text files on MY computer makes it weaker "evidence" since I could tamper with them. It was much better when these things were stored on the IANDS servers where tampering would be impossible. Ah well.
But no, no photos. I will ruminate over this question, though … maybe there is something I have somewhere that would serve as some kind of evidence. Will think about it. I do have plenty of people who could serve as references (as far as seeing things with me and other stuff). But its hard to take the word of someone who is a friend of the claimant.
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10:16 pm November 8, 2009
| Kira
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The Doctor said:
Hmmm -
A " tall gold robot looking thing " and " a short silver robot-looking being " ?
Just why do these images seem so very familiar ?
I know, I know. Why, oh why did we see something that sounds like Star Wars? I know. By the way, I think those movies were produced about 9 years before the New Mexico vision, so its not like we had seen it recently or were thinking of Star Wars for some reason.
So the question is where did these images come from? If this was NOT some strange kind of group hallucination, then who would have used that image to "communicate" (?) with two 15 year olds? Are group hallucinations even possible? If they are, can they last for 2 hours or more if there are no hypnotists, drugs, music or other influences? If not, then who/what would have produced these images and why? It is perplexing. A good friend of mine who studies apparitions and such and has written many books on such subjects, suggested to me that it could be that aliens just just like to f*ck with us (forgive my french). I guess its as good an explanation as any. Anyhow, you can see how this stuff can drive you mad sometimes if you think about it too hard.
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10:28 pm November 8, 2009
| Kira
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Learjet said:
Hmm hypnagogic hallucination… It's not really a typical scenario as described in this story. HH usually occur near sleep, when fatigued from lack of sleep, have durations in the minutes rather than hours, tends to change or morph and as far as I know the unique imagery is only experienced by one person.
This is a long shot Kira but do you remember what else was in that room opposite the window? Paintings, photos or artwork of any kind? Any pot plants? Wallpaper?
You may be able to guess where I'm going with this. Glass is not 100% transparent. There is a significant amount of reflectivity that under the right lightning conditions can deceive the mind into thinking that something is on the other side of the glass when it's actually behind or to the side of you.
oh, good thinking.
I remember the room generally, simply because I ran into everything as we were trying to escape it! The room was completely dark. It was a moonless night, and the lights were off in that room. We were sitting at a huge window that was on the outside wall of the room. We were sitting on a couch that was pushed back against the window. Behind us was a coffee table, a chair to the side of it, and directly behind us on the far wall next to the door was a book case with a TV in the center. The TV, of course, was off so we could watch the storm. The tree outside the window looked REAL — there was no question at all in our minds if it was there or not. I just remember thinking it was strange that an evergreen-shaped tree would have no needles at all. I mean, they are ever-green! And it was moving in the wind. Not in some kind of rhythm. You know, just so we get both sides of the story, I may ask my cousin Todd to type out his recollection of the event. I am sure that he won't type more than a few lines, he is not a talker, nor a story teller. But I will see what he says so that we can look at it as well.
I am very interested in your understanding of hypnogogic hallucination. I have not read anything about this, and honestly it would be the easiest explanation if it matches any of the criterion.
Oh, and behind the door leading out of the room was the hallway. The light was on in the hallway, and just to the left of the hall was an open kitchen where my aunts were all chatting. I do remember having a terrible stomach ache that week, but as far as I remember it was not on that night, but after that night.
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10:33 pm November 8, 2009
| Kira
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Learjet said:
This is a long shot Kira but do you remember what else was in that room opposite the window? Paintings, photos or artwork of any kind? Any pot plants? Wallpaper?
You may be able to guess where I'm going with this. Glass is not 100% transparent. There is a significant amount of reflectivity that under the right lightning conditions can deceive the mind into thinking that something is on the other side of the glass when it's actually behind or to the side of you.
Oops, forgot to answer a couple things…
I don't remember if there were any plants in the room. The walls were wood paneling and adobe (brown & tan). The floor was leather (brown). The couch was dark (green?) and was cloth. I don't remember what paintings were hanging if any. It is a simple house, nothing fancy, not alot of gizmos around. But I will ask, my cousins still live there.
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11:50 pm November 8, 2009
| Learjet
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Okay thanks. The storm event doesn't really sound like hypnagogic hallucinations to me. Although I'm no expert, I was a member of a forum that would experiment with them along with lucid dreaming. Experiments were also conducted with shared dreaming, among other things, but while I was there none of them were particularly successful.
The spirit visits you get at night, are they are near sleep time or when you are tired? It is interesting that you have a theme (about Russia). I have a couple of themes also, some of which I can understand the origin of, others I can't.
With your spirit visits, do you have any unusual optical or audible artifacts such as visible sparkles, flashing lights, a buzzing sound or odd smells?
Do you mind me asking what you did at NASA?
Sorry for all the questions, but curious minds etc…
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1:03 am November 9, 2009
| M. Roget
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Oh dear. Or maybe, oh f__k. Reading my so much earlier comment over again, I fear that Learjet has misinterpreted my meaning. Was not referencing any hypnagogic state I've experienced to mean Kira & cousin's one time "haunted" tree deal, but the more general experiences she has had & terms paranormal.
Having cleared that up I hope, have at whatever discussion is going on.
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1:59 am November 9, 2009
| Learjet
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No worries M. Roget. The tree thing has me stumped. Stumped get it. But we'll see where we go with the other descriptions from Kira.
I have asked a couple of psychic mediums what their images look like, how they move etc and the description they've given me and the state they were in are…. you guessed it, perfect matches for HH.
Yet part of me wonders if in the hypnagogic state we have special abilities. I've had a couple of interesting things happen in that state and in lucid dreams which leaves me scratching my bald head.
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9:59 am November 9, 2009
| The Doctor
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Kira said:
The Doctor said:
Hmmm -
A " tall gold robot looking thing " and " a short silver robot-looking being " ?
Just why do these images seem so very familiar ?
A good friend of mine who studies apparitions and such and has written many books on such subjects, suggested to me that it could be that aliens just just like to f*ck with us (forgive my french).
'A teaser? Teasers are usually rich kids with nothing to do. They cruise around looking for planets which haven't made interstellar contact yet and buzz them.'
'Buzz them?' Arthur began to feel that Ford was enjoying making life difficult for him.
Yeah,' said Ford, 'they buzz them.
They find some isolated spot with very few people around, then land right by some poor unsuspecting soul whom no one's ever going to believe and then strut up and down in front of him wearing silly antennae on their head and making beep beep noises. Rather childish really.'
From the book "Hitch-hiker's guide to Galaxy" by Douglas Adams
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11:47 am November 9, 2009
| BrendaLee
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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." – Dr. Seuss
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3:14 pm November 9, 2009
| Kira
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Learjet said:
The spirit visits you get at night, are they are near sleep time or when you are tired? It is interesting that you have a theme (about Russia). I have a couple of themes also, some of which I can understand the origin of, others I can't.
With your spirit visits, do you have any unusual optical or audible artifacts such as visible sparkles, flashing lights, a buzzing sound or odd smells?
Do you mind me asking what you did at NASA?
Sorry for all the questions, but curious minds etc…
How do you experiment with these HHs?
The "spirit visits" happen near morning after a good night's sleep. They trigger some kind of lucid state where they either take my consciousness and put it in the mind of someone else on the globe to witness an event, or they show me a scene and some words (that I have to read in a dream state, kinda hard). They will give me names, timeframes, situations, but so far no exact dates. Usually I do not see the entitiy that is giving me the message, but in recent years I have tried to look for them when such a vision starts, and have seen what I think is a representation of the messenger of those types of visions. In the same nearly-wake state I will often get messages from dead relatives or friend's relatives. I tended to blow these things off until recently when one decided to "prove" to me that the message wasn't just some brain-wave vomit. So now I take them seriously.
No, I have never had any unusual optical or audible artifacts such as visible sparkles, flashing lights, a buzzing sound or odd smells. I have also seen ghosts in the two aforementioned haunted houses, but no artifacts with those either. Other people also saw ghosts in those two locations.
I was the server administrator for the shuttle project at nasa for a while, and then I worked with scientists to get thier data into distributable formats so that other researchers could use that data. When the scientists would cooperate, that is. Many of them like to keep thier research to themselves. Interestingly enough, the one other person in the world that I have met that seems to have similar visions as myself in that near awake dream state is also a nasa employee, but we met on that IANDS site many many years ago.
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7:19 pm November 9, 2009
| Learjet
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Okay that's interesting. It is a hypnagogic state by the sound of it, but with a twist.
Unfortunately I'm not feeling well today and my thoughts are are barely lucid so I'll leave further comment for another time.
In the meantime more stories/experiences would be good.
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10:13 am November 10, 2009
| M. Roget
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10:56 am November 10, 2009
| captainsteve
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Now that you have me flashing back to my previous life…we would say (in a calm, quiet voice) "I believe you… now just get in the car and I will take you to a place to talk to a nice person".
Since this is a site for skeptics some choices are; Betty Ford Clinic, church, exercise, no sugar/coffee, counciling, an aluminum hat. Take your pick and get help.
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12:57 pm November 10, 2009
| Nosfer
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Well, I'd say that was a classic case of "Physician, heal thyself" :( If you're gong to be skeptical, be skeptical on all fronts, not just toward the side that favors your beliefs.
This may exactly be a case of hypnagogic happenings, but before suggesting someone seek therapy and meds, I'd like to examine this more fully before accepting or condemning. As we ALL should.
Kira, these visions, were these able to be corroborated with actual events that took place after the vision was had? Documentation? If these have been tied to events that had not happened at the time but subsequently DID occur, what is the frequency? How many hits vs misses? Is it above the level of statistical significance or at the level of chance?
And the other post:
Since this is a site for skeptics some choices are; Betty Ford Clinic, church, exercise, no sugar/coffee, counciling, an aluminum hat. Take your pick and get help.
Perhaps, but if you are truly a skeptic, you might want to consider all the facts before jumping to conclusions. Like I said, we are quite likely dealing with "HH" but since other information was offered which can be tested, let's test it and verify.
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1:13 pm November 10, 2009
| Kira
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captainsteve said:
Now that you have me flashing back to my previous life…we would say (in a calm, quiet voice) "I believe you… now just get in the car and I will take you to a place to talk to a nice person".
Since this is a site for skeptics some choices are; Betty Ford Clinic, church, exercise, no sugar/coffee, counciling, an aluminum hat. Take your pick and get help.
That is adorable.
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1:47 pm November 10, 2009
| Kira
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Nosfer said:
Kira, these visions, were these able to be corroborated with actual events that took place after the vision was had? Documentation? If these have been tied to events that had not happened at the time but subsequently DID occur, what is the frequency? How many hits vs misses? Is it above the level of statistical significance or at the level of chance?
Hey Nosfer –
Its these visions that I would document on the IANDS.org server. They kept them online and time-stamped for 6 years. Sadly, one day I logged in, and the "premonitions posted" thread that they were logged in was gone, as was the entire dream study section. Luckily, I had backed up the documentation to my own computer, which is now a second hard drive on my computer that at the moment I can't access — but I think with some effort I can get in there and extract those files.
There were several points of doumenting these visions:
1) to make sure I couldn't go back and change them to fit some current event (I trust me, but others have no reason to)
2) to correlate actual events to the visions later
3) to discover whether or not having these visions MATTERED… I am not completely convinced that it does matter, at least not in this point in history.
In six solid years of submitting visions, which probably occurred on the average of once a week, only 3 were as close to dead-on hits as can be possible for my visions, I think. One was a personal (family friend) event, and two were national events. The family event was an exact hit, with matching names and exact situations, and the vision was documented three days before the event occured. Also, this family friend had not been heard of for 20 years, and lived 2000 miles away, so its not like I could have somehow picked up on the pending event subconciously. The national events were the bombing if the USS Cole, and a subway bombing in Russia. I can go into detail about the visions if you want, but don't want to sit here typing all day if its not something you want to examine.
Many of the visions I had in those 6 years are of a more distant future, and some were not so distant but they were either unverifiable or not direct enough hits to worry about. Almost all of them were relevant… but it would seem hard to have an irrelevant vision, since my mind exists in the world that IS relevant.
I believe that the fact that I did not have a TV or a radio for the entire time I had these visions is important. I have had visions of this type (and other waking types) all my life, but we lived most of my life in places were TV was either not available or not worth my time. I think not having constant image input allowed my mind the space to create its own visions for whatever reason. I say this because just this past year I finally did get a TV, and to my knowledge I have not had any premonitions since. Maybe one, but i can't really remember it.
Interestingly, I did not have any premonition of 9-11, and yet my room mate that year did have an unusual feeling of intense dread the night before 9-11 and could not sleep. He is not interested in these subjects, but was pretty freaked out when he heard that others around the nation also had feelings of dread the night before 9-11.
I can't say there were many misses, because sometimes the visions were more like situations being presented that may or may not be true, or I can't know if they are true until a future date. For example, the situation I am thinking of was a vision I had of american tanks on american land destroying the landscape with fire (the tanks in the vision shot fire). The tanks were passing by a school that was completely obliterated in this fight, and americanized people from the Ukraine (there's usually some Russia connection in my visions) were watching the tanks in baffled confusion. That was the whole of the vision. I don't think this is something that has occurred yet, but tells of an american civil war (?) or at least of a war we have to fight on our own soil with tanks. The clothes people wore in this vision were decidedly modern, so I figure we won't know if this vision has any merit for another 20 years.
Sometimes the visions would be "lessons", where someone would take me from my body and show me things about the world, the Universe, history, the future, or people.
There was one vision I had once, though, that was a definate miss. It was about a volcano that would erupt on a tropical Island (taiwan?) — 3 days after posting this vision to my site, I saw a Discover show on a friend's tv that had the exact images from my vision. My conclusion is that I had somehow seen that show recently while out somewhere and it was just replayed in my lucid dream state, and I took it for a vision.
My son will be out at his cousin's house tonite, so maybe I will find some time to type up another ghost encounter. There are kazillions.
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2:06 pm November 10, 2009
| Nosfer
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Instead of spreading off into another encounter, let's tackle the current item first.
I can't say there were many misses, because sometimes the visions were more like situations being presented that may or may not be true, or I can't know if they are true until a future date.
Situations presented that may or may not be true doesn't sound like they would be very worthy of being called "visions"
History Channel has it's Nostradamus Effect, but there is another "Effect" and that is that it is very easy to retrofit an event to a "prophecy" I read a book on his prophecies back in the 80s probably and it was funny how the same quatrain that is now being used to say he predicted 9/11 was being used then for some other event.
You say you saw the Cole bombing. Was the Cole named? How are you certain that was what it was. When was the vision in relation to the event (night before, week before, year before etc?)
In six solid years of submitting visions, which probably occurred on the average of once a week, only 3 were as close to dead-on hits as can be possible for my visions, I think.
3 does not sound like that significant a number relative to the number experienced and saying "they just haven't happened yet" leaves a lot of wiggle room.
Many of the visions I had in those 6 years are of a more distant future, and some were not so distant but they were either unverifiable or not direct enough hits to worry about.
The fact that many were not verifiable or not direct hits indicates that there is a lot of chance going on. (Even a broken analog watch is still correct twice a day)
Do you have any idea of the numbers of visions that you had in those six years? One a week for 6 years would be a bit more than 300 visions? But only 3 hits makes the percentage less than 1% which is pretty low, all things considered. I'd be interested in hearing the details that you saw of the Cole bombing and when the vision occurred.
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Kira @ 7:16 pm