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Fact or Faked, S01E04: Predator;Red Sky at Night

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11:49 pm
August 5, 2010


ksdgb

Guest

First off I had a dog that a friend was taking care of. It was a pit-bull, (I know I know) and the friend owned the pits brother, as well as a black lab. On the show they were not sure that a dog could kill a sheep like that. I will tell you the three dogs I mentioned before killed, in one attack 3 Eu's and a ram. They were taken to animal control and after they passed the hair and ear tags of the 4 sheep they were destroyed. Next the creature, if you look on the Internet there is tons of info about these, (BOARS) from news articles, photos, and videos. One video shows three boars counter attacking a leopard. I am giving up on the show it is really poorly done. I don't think this show will last. Just my opinion, or "common sense". I am a hunter I have hunted for 45 years, the animal is without a doubt a boar. I have seen many run in this manner and the extra hair near and on the head is common in adult males, and resembels a mane There whole approach on this was pore.

6:12 am
August 6, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2875

Revenant said:

Since Nosfer did such an excellent job in the write-up of the last episode, I shall refrain from commenting too much until he posts on this one.  Just…two quick things…


I've got a good start on it but I've run into a bit of a twist when I started looking at their's and the original footage I had to pause to do some more analysis of video. Hopefully within the next hour or two, though.

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7:06 am
August 6, 2010


Patrick

Investigator

posts 176

Revenant and Nosfer have said all that needs to be said.  Yes, we'll film one dog and dismiss the rest of the entire Canidae family.  That's some good sciencein' fer ya!  And how some low growl becomes a roar, you are right, you will find a monster when you want to find a monster.

I haven't watched the UFO investigation yet, already had too many IPA's and my brain was hurting from the high level science being displayed in Dartmoor.

I think I need to give up on this show.  Except in the Fall it might fit in with the new Thurs comedy night.  Big Bang Theory is moving to Thursdays you know….

8:03 am
August 6, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2875

Note: This got really long, especially with the illustrations so this first one will just be the Dartmoor case.  Once I get my nerve up to watch these guys again, I’ll tackle El Cajon.

This Beast of Dartmoor portion was a much anticipated episode on my part and probably on the parts of a few others here.  This was because we had already had quite a bit of discussion and had reviewed the video many times, and done a fairly thorough analysis, probably more thorough than FoF did.  I don’t know about anyone else but, having flown around the area in Google Earth from many angles and levels and having watched the video several dozen times before the show, it all had a very familiar sense for some reason lol

The episode starts out in a now familiar fashion with the six investigators sitting around the ‘Situation Room’ reviewing videos to tackle for this week’s episode.  The team goes through several videos, debunking a few of them in rapid-fire succession which is probably to instill a sense of “these guys know what they’re doing” in the viewing audience.  While discussing the Beast of Dartmoor, it is mentioned that a Dr C J Farmer at the University of Utah (a vertebrate specialist and biologist) thinks that the legs of the creature in the video are too long and slender for a boar and was thinking possibly a pony except that the tail does not match.  One thing I must point out is that the person’s name is actually C G Farmer, not C J!  Strike one for accuracy.  The team does bring up the possibility of a lion and also the rare (but unlikely) black lion which I mentioned above.

When the reviewing is done, the team settles on a “solid” UFO case and a cryptozoological case.  The Beast of Dartmoor is the crypto case and a triangle of red lights floating in the air over El Cajon, California, is chosen for the “solid” UFO case.  Bill, Larry, and Jael will check out the lights, and Ben, Austin, and Chi-Lan make sure their passports are in order for a hop across the pond to check out The Beast.

The Beast of Dartmoor

In the car ride, the conversation is about how wild and hidden the area.  At one point Austin says something like 368 square miles of just absolute nothing but untouched terrain.  Ben also has to bring up that the Beast is not the only paranormal activity there and starts telling of stories where your hands get pulled and something tries to pull you over to the side of the road.

They decide to meet John Downes, a Cryptozoologist who also is an expert in the folklore of Dartmoor.  They are about to ask him to look at the video and tell them what he knows of the Beast and he immediately goes into a story about the Devil’s Hunting Pack.  The team gasps and with wide eyes breathes out “No”  They gather round like expectant children waiting for a bedtime story and John tells them of a mean and nasty Squire in the 1600s who, when he died, had the Hounds of Hell unleashed upon him to drag his soul to Hell.  The story goes that these hounds are what people are seeing all over Dartmoor.

John goes on to say that he’s been coming there for the last 45 years (although he would only have been 5 or 6 at the time given his birth year being in 1959– http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Downes ) and has known people who have seen the black dogs.  I have no doubt about that, there are many black dogs.  Are they all pets of Satan?  (GHI should have asked him in this week’s episode)  I am more doubtful of that.  John admits that he’s never seen them himself, adds that there are enough stories up to the present that there has to be something.

The team then heads into the park and decides to look for the exact spot where the video was shot.  They find a potential spot which looks to me like Fernworthy Reservoir.  See the image below for a Google Earth view from the same angle as the direction the team is looking when they proclaim that they have found the spot where the video was shot from.  Fernworthy Reservoir is in Devon and IS in Dartmoor National Forest.  Sounds good, right?

No.  It does not.  Look at the video frame below from the original http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y87IJ4-Rw-c  Chi-Lan says that they are standing right where the video was shot.  Does the image above look anything like the image below?

It doesn’t?  Come on, squint your eyes a little and try again.  Now does it?  No?  Okay.  Tough crowd!  Take a look at the next image.  This is where I think the video was shot from.  Look a bit better?  Yes?  This is in Cornwall.  The lake is 45 MILES away from Fernworthy Reservoir.  Strike two for accuracy.  I wonder if I even need to continue this?  Well, I will.

The team heads to an animal training facility where they have large animals  so they can see if any of them look like what was on the video.  They meet with Jim Clubb, the owner of Amazing Animals Studio.  They talk with him about some of the more popular theories about the Beast, you know, dog, pony, or even a lion and fortunately, AAS has all three of them right there so “we can shoot them”  I did a double-take even though I knew what he meant.

First up is the Pony Experiment.  The ponies are native which is more than can be said for a lion.  Chi-Lan films the pony running around and declares that the speed is pretty good.  It is?  I wouldn’t say that, but okay.  There is a big difference between the back end of the pony and the Beast and the leg proportion is wrong.  The pony lays down for a rest and the team says that it’s easy to say that a pony is not it.  Well, since they don’t know their lake from a hole in the ground I’m not giving them many points for visual interpretations anymore, although a pony did NOT look too likely.

Next it’s off to the Green Screen Stage.  With this setup, they can film the animals and plop them into the scene and see how the animal would look running in the wild.  Personally I thought they should have hauled the lion out to the lake and turned it loose after one of the team members so we could see it at a full run and video that.  The producers did not like my idea for some reason.

They refilm the pony and use that as an example of superimposing it against the backdrop of the moors.  To their credit, they did blur the video to mimic the 3-second original.  The pony still did not look too likely a candidate.

Next they bring out Fydyow (hey, we’re close enough to Wales where I can do that) a black dog of some sorts.  Okay, so my identifications skills are not razor sharp when it comes to domestic dogs! Lol  Sonia Turner, the trainer, goes across the room  while Austin holds the dog by the collar.  Looks like a mastiff of some sort?  (The dog, not Austin)  Sonia goes over and “revs up the dog” and Austin lets go his grip and they film him (the dog again, not Austin) bounding across the screen.  Chi-Lan says the gait and appearance weren’t very similar at all to the Beast of Dartmoor and Ben agrees.  So do I for that matter.  So, it’s not a dog.  The dog is debunked along with the pony.  Wait a second, aren’t there a couple hundred different breeds of dogs (especially when you count cross-breeds, etc)?  So just because ONE type of dog didn’t look right, the entire possibility of it being a dog is debunked?  Way to go gang!

So, now, let’s bring out the lion.  Yeah, to quote Austin “I’m all about a lion!”  Well, I have to admit, I too am curious about how the lion looks since that was the form I was first reminded of when I saw the original video.  They haul out a lion who starts walking around and hamming it up for the camera.  They (the trainers, not the team, of course) start taunting the lion and trying to get him worked up but the lion isn’t too impressed and doesn’t give any real good footage.  Barely walking fast.  Well, of course not, the darn room is too small for him to get up to speed.

They rev him up some more and get ready to film one last scene which Chi-Lan knows ahead of time that this last pass is going to be the fastest.  And sure enough, it is, although it’s not really all that fast.  The team says that that was the shot that matched the Beast the best.  And I have to agree.  Of the three very uncontrolled, haphazard, “tests” the lion does get points for matching the original video the best.

Austin says that “anatomically” that looked almost exact.  But “from a kinesiological standpoint” (someone got out his dictionary) it wasn’t quite exact.

At this point they bring up the Wild Boar idea, and it’s off they go on a Boar Hunt.  Or as the title says, a “Tracking Expedition”  The first part of the tracking is to track down a tracker and they find one in the person of Danny Bamping.  Danny thinks it could be a wild boar.  Recall that C J, er, C G Farmer above thought it WASN’T a boar.    Danny also says there’s a chance it could be a cat.

Ben asks what sort of things people are seeing there and Danny replies with “Cats, large black cats”  and goes on to talk about species that have been released apparently into the wild that may now be being seen.  Oh, and since there have been many species released, there could be hybrids.  Uh oh!

Austin asks where they might find wild boar or cats and Danny is happy to oblige.  But they are nocturnal so instead they go looking for signs of the boar or cat’s activity.  They soon find the hoof of a sheep.  A sheep is not a small animal, Chi-Lan says, and Danny agrees and says whatever killed it has to be something BIG!  A fox or a dog or a cat.  Fox ain’t that big, believe me!  At least not big enough to warrant the dramatic music they play.

Not content with just a hoof, the team spreads out to see what else they can find.  Sure enough, fur and a sheep carcass that looks to be in a rather bad way.  They determine that it is related to the hoof from before and that things have been just strewn across the whole hillside.  It turns out to be a ram which means it’s even bigger than they thought.  Austin repeats that it had to be something BIG to drag it this far.

Ben, in a moment of reason, asks how they can tell if it was actually killed or died of natural causes and Danny says that if they can find puncture wounds it was killed rather than “just died” and proceeds to poke it with a stick.  Wonder what sort of puncture wounds a stick makes?  Sure enough they find a little hole but add that the teeth (or tooth since I see only one hole) could be much bigger than that because of skin shrinkage over the last week.

So now there’s evidence that “there’s a big predator around”   Ben says he doesn’t know what could do that to its prey but that people have been seeing these strange creatures on the moors for centuries so maybe it IS a Hound from Hell.  Okay……

He does then say that they should try to find it and catch it on camera.  I have no problem with that, sounds like a good plan.  Maybe they could test how fast it could run, too….

But, there’s a problem.  Most of the animals which they think might be the Dartmoor Beast are nocturnal.  So we now cut to a night scene with them traipsing around with IR camera and thermal imaging systems.  Um….just a second, if I may….I’d like to just briefly point out that the original video that started this whole thing was <b>shot in the daylight!</b>  Granted, I think it was near sunset, but the sun was still UP.  Guess we can at least rule out a vampire.

Anyway, logic notwithstanding, the team is now in the dark (or has been since episode one, when you think about it) and they are searching for more signs of prints, carcasses, etc.  And of course, right off, we get a “Did you hear that?”  I didn’t but let’s listen closely.  Now I hear it, a pretty low, guttural growl.  And this point I can’t hear a flipping thing they are saying because of the darn suspenseful music they treat us to.  The sound editors must have studied at the GH School of Obscuring the Real Sounds.

They (Ben and Austin) radio in to Chi-Lan who is monitoring something back at “base” and tell her about the sound and that it was louder than that lion.  Um, another point of order.  These folks have obviously never heard the full range of sounds a lion is capable of making.  

More dramatic music and unintelligible conversation, although even without the music….

Then a reflection on the thermal (a reflection of eyes)  They see something and even circle it for us, but again the circle is halfway OFF the screen and they do NOT pan to center it.  Strike three on equipment use. 

It’s directly in front of them but they can’t tell anything so they head closer.  Maybe we’ll get to see how fast they can run.  They move closer and the dramatic music increases to a crescendo and we get glimpses of something moving in front of them and then…..horses.  Maybe The Beast IS a pony.  They bring up the fact that the deep growl was not a pony and I have to agree with them.  If Joe Chin were along, I’d suggest he was responsible but since he’s off filming for GH or GHI or whichever one he’s bounced back and forth between, we have to clear him of any guilt in this episode.

Leaving the ponies behind they come across another sheep carcass that has been picked clean and let Chi-Lan know that “if something took this thing down, it had to be huge”   But then Ben says that it’s possible that it died naturally and that it was simply scavenged.  Well, maybe there’s hope for at least Ben.

But then Austin tells us of the internal and external temperature being the same so it’s been there a while and if it was a predator it was huge.  “Natural causes” as a possibility just doesn’t get much air time does it.

A quick flight later and they are back in the Situation Room telling their tale to Bill, Larry, and Jael.  Jael is more interested in whether or not Ben saw Big Ben.   Chi-Lan talks about the only way to solve this being to go out into the moor which they did and found bits and pieces of sheep all over the place.  Little bit of exaggeration there, but okay.

They recap the superimposing and show the dog and pony and lion in the same scene (well, as close as you can get from 45 miles away) but dismiss all three.  They admit the lion couldn’t get up to speed so it wasn’t a real good test.

Then things just go off the deep end.  They estimate how large the creature would be to take down the prey (remember before it could have been a simple fox) and the speed of it.  Not only that they create a 3D model “MonsterQuest-Style) showing a HYBRID of a cat and “maybe a boar” and present us with some “escapee from a genetic engineering lab”

At this point they get so outrageous in their suppositions that I was in fits laughing at them. 

So, the moral of the story here is if, in your incompetence, you can’t find what you’re looking for, just make something up!  They show the 3D model running side by side split screen with the original video and conclude that it could be a cat, but that England has said there are no cats there.  Chi-Lan pipes up about there being 20,000 new species discovered every single year.  What she neglects to mention is that I don’t think any of these really were what you would consider mega-fauna.  Yes, a lot of new frogs, a lot of marine animals, bunch of insects, but (if the 20,000 is even accurate) nothing really on this scale.

Ben ends up repeating about the Devil having a personal pack of Hell Hounds.  The video was not hoaxed and that there was something very large and unexplained there, and the case is left a mystery.

I will repeat my findings above and wish to stress that I think this video was not even shot in Dartmoor National Forest but rather 40 miles west of  it and about 45 miles away from the reservoir that they claim was the spot.  Given the shoddy investigation skills it takes to miss something like that, I can’t really give much credibility to anything they find.  And I didn’t even get to go to the UK to figure this out.

 

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11:52 am
August 6, 2010


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

A very fine review, Nosfer.  First and foremost, excellent job in figuring out that they were in the wrong place.  That's pretty funny…or sad…depending upon your point of view.

I don't want to recap your review, no need…I just want to throw out a few things.

I really laughed when they brought out the green screen.  Do we need to see how a Dartmoor Pony runs?  Yes.  A dog (which I'm thinking was a Boxer or Boxer mix)…ok.  Although I don't think they even tried too hard with the dog.  At least use a Newfoundland which was mistaken  for a "Hellhound" and is big and can have very long hair.  But as I've stated, the gate of most dogs do not match the video and those dogs that "might" match the gate, like the Saluki, don't match up physically with the creature. 

As for the lion?  Did we need the green screen?  Maybe…I mean there has only been 17,983,729 TV shows featuring the lion.  Maybe they just can't pull up a video like this one and figure out that in no way, shape, or form does the gate of a lion match the creature on the video.  The back legs just don't get off the ground that much.  That's why I wasn't really considering the lion as an option.  Well…that and the path of destruction that a 550lb male lion would pave.

But let's go back to the beginning.  Let's return to the scene of the crime…or at least within 45 miles of it.  What evidence do we have?  We have an anonymous person…which right there is a red flag.  We know nothing of the person's character nor their expertise in video and editing.  We have a three second video which is heavily edited…another red flag.  Why do we only get to see an edited version and not the orginal?  Speaking of the original, why does the film cut off after 3 seconds?  Another red flag.  And when one watches the film, it is blurry (red flag), poorly lit (red flag), and has no sense of scale (red flag). 

Those are six very legitimate red flags on the "evidence" that people are claiming to be paranormal.  We (members of SV) have been reviewing supposed evidence of the paranormal much longer than the FoF team has.  Six red flags?  And you come away with "There are monster in England!!!"?  Wow…

Overall for FoF…a very poor showing.  Obviously, Austin dreams of monsters.  I saw this a bit with Raystown Ray last week.  This week…it was full-blown.  He was insistent that "the monster" was HUGE!  It was out there!  It's real!  It's like watching a 12 year old.  Which is fine in a way, just don't tell me that anything that was done on that show was scientific, worth-while, or trustworthy.

It's been fun trying to figure out what the creature could be.  But…I'm just not seeing the paranormal aspect.  Especially all the cat/boar hybrid nonsense…

Cat/boar hybrid…  Undecided  

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

12:06 pm
August 6, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2875

Personally, the funnest thing about the episode was the extra mystery it introduced in trying to figure out where they actually were.  I can't believe they mopped that one so bad.  And Chi-Lan trying to justify it with "and this hill and that hill and such and such"  Shows me they can see anything they want if they look hard enough.  Last night when I saw the episode it was just screaming at me "This isn't the place"  I thought there was a possibility of a severe drought and the lake level and gone WAY down but this morning I took another look at it and there is a dam on the eastern end (top part of the lake from the angle they show) which can be seen in both the shot shown on the show and the image above.

What raised my suspicions was Austin talking about all these square miles of nothing and when I was looking at my location, there were little towns and vales and downs and hamlets all over the place.  Certainly not "nothing" 

Interestingly, the youtube video now has the title of "(As seen on Fact or Faked)"  This locational problem strikes at the very credibility of the videographer.  He says he was in Dartmoor filming.  If he was 45 miles away from where he SAYS he was, what else is not true???

Edited: Anyone have a youtube account that could post a link to this thread? The number of posts on youtube has jumped to about 10 pages overnight lol

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12:48 pm
August 6, 2010


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

Nosfer said: "Last night when I saw the episode it was just screaming at me "This isn't the place"

Yeah, the thing that jumped out at me was that in the video, there seems to be a trail or road at the far right of the video, right at the end of it.  In FoF's shot…I couldn't see it.  Well…because it was 45 miles away… Laughing

Nosfer said in his review: "They (Ben and Austin) radio in to Chi-Lan who is monitoring something back at “base” and tell her about the sound and that it was louder than that lion.  Um, another point of order.  These folks have obviously never heard the full range of sounds a lion is capable of making."

Absolutely.  I really laughed at that one.  One of nature's greatest wonders is the roar of a lion.  It's simply amazing that so much noise can come out of one animal.  As a kid, hell…even now, one of my favorite things in the world is to be at a zoo at feeding time for the lions.  At Brookfield Zoo (near Chicago), the lion house is made of stone and marble (they have a huge outdoor area but they come indoors to feed).  When they roar…it's literally deafening.  Nobody comes out of the lion house at feeding time without being throroughly impressed. 

So if a lion roared, where ever "base" was (most likely within a mile or so)…Chi-Lan would have heard it.  If it was louder than a lion…Chi-Lan could have been in Scotland and probably have heard it… Laughing   

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

2:43 pm
August 6, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2875

The Plot Thickens

The youtube user who posted this video has removed his two other videos that he had online, including the one I mention in Post #6 in this thread which was also of a "paranormal" nature.

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7:24 pm
August 6, 2010


blinddog

Moderator

posts 854

Maybe I missed the mention of it.

After such a ''savage'' attack, should there not be more blood on the wool than what I saw.

Just sayin'.

" Take the red pill ".

7:31 pm
August 6, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2875

I think they showed us a pretty good shot of what ate quite a bit of the carcass.  Did you see all the maggots crawling around in there!  Didn't MonsterQuest show us the rate at which a deer carcass disappeared using time-lapse photography…it waddant dat long!

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1:30 am
August 8, 2010


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

Alright…here's my last bid in figuring out what the creature in the video actually is…beyond a "cat/boar hybrid"… Laughing

I have ruled out lions, sheep, rams, goats, Dartmoor ponies, large cats (including leopards or jaguars), and dogs.  That leaves us with two:

The Wild Boar – A good choice.  They are in the area, they fit the relative shape, and they can have a type of "mane" around their necks.  This is as good of a video as I could find with one running (even left to right):

http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/big-wild-boar-running-to-cameraman/ada991833f1b830cf5ceada991833f1b830cf5ce-100506403832?q=wild%20boar,%20video,%20running&FROM=LKVR5&GT1=LKVR5&FORM=LKVR8

It is good.  Very, very close.  I still don't like the gate.  Although, one could argue that the terrain was not even, thus kicking up the back legs a bit more than usual.  I will concede that possibility.  But, my heart leads me in a different direction…

The Hare/Jackrabbit – My first instinct was a jackrabbit and after everything, still remains my best choice. There are several European species that are much larger than the ones here in the US.  In the video that I've found for us, it shows a couple of things.  First, that its ears, while in a dead sprint, are laid flat against its body.  This would emulate the "mane" seen in the Dartmoor video.  The second thing, it perfectly matches the gate.  Note how high the back legs come off the ground.  Take a look (the site and video is a bit weird…it will  load, it just takes a bit.  It will sprint about mid-way in the video, whenever it decides to load…):

 http://www.arkive.org/brown-hare/lepus-europaeus/video-06.html

Take that image of the Brown Hare, blur it, darken it, put it 45 miles away from FoF's location and I think we have a winner.  Remember, no scale was ever established.  I still don't believe that the person taking the video was even standing up when the person shot the video. 

My best guess as to the mysterious Dartmoor video is this:  A person was out in Cornwall.  The person saw a hare and crouched down on the ground to video-tape it (crouching down or kneeling down would change the angle and make the hare appear larger on video).  Startled at being seen (or prompted somehow…yelling, gunshot, dog, whatever) the hare took off in a dead sprint.  Getting home and reviewing the video, the person saw that it was most likely out of focus and a bit dark (either time of day or cloudy).  But…all was not lost.

If one crops the video just so and puts it into slow motion, it looks quite odd.  Dartmoor, just a stone's throw away, has a rich history of "monsters."  Things start coming together.  Just for fun…put this 3 second video out to the world, attach the location of Dartmoor to it…and…hi-jinx ensue.

This doesn't seem that far-fetched to me.  It may have started out innocently enough.  The person may have just put out the video because the person thought it was "cool"…not thinking some Yanks would actually come along looking for it… Laughing

So…that's my guess.  Well, either that or a cat/boar hybrid… Undecided … Laughing 

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

7:01 am
August 8, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2875

I still think it has a good physical resemblence to a lion and possibly even a boar, although in my searches for boar video I was less and less convinced.  I had come across the one you posted and another one that was actually filmed (supposedly, you never know these days!) in Dartmoor.  The boar isn't as sleak behind the head and isn't as graceful in it's movement, though.  It's gait is more peg-legged than that of a lion or hare.  Looks aren't everything, though.  I can even accept a lion in the form of a temporary escapee from one of the zoos around there.  Possibly captured not long after so it couldn't leave too much of a path of destruction or get much press.  My real problem with a lion has always been it's running like that. 

What?, you say…but you said that the run is very similar.  It is, but under what circumstances does a lion run like that.  Most often it's in pursuit and especially in the nearing of the take-down.  Just startling a lion isn't going to get that reaction.

There is actually one scene in the video where, after a drink or two, and if I really squint, I might be able to convince myself that there is separation between the "mane" and the back of the animal.  Given the condition of the video, though, I can't be certain.  But if it were, it would lend support to the ear theory.  And, hey, if a rabbit can take down a fully grown, armor-clad, sword-wielding knight, it would have no trouble with a sheep! :)

I don't like the video nor the circumstances surrounding it. 

  1. As we've complained, it's too short. 3 seconds of actual footage and the animal is still in frame when it stops.  He was panning the animal so that was the target, it wasn't something he "noticed" in the footage later so you know darned well that he didn't stop recording then…so why does it end there? 
  2. It's blurry, there is absolutely nothing in that video that is in focus. I mentioned above that auto-focus was a wonderful invention and should have kicked in here.  Was this possibly blurred after-the-fact?
  3. Anonymous source (sort of like Raystown Ray) 
  4. It wasn't filmed where he said it was filmed. 
  5. AND he has taken down his two other videos, including another paranormal one about a weird image on his TV screen.  I "theorize" that he did this because the other one was a bit of a stretch and might "smoke this one out"

Although…I do think that a proto-sasquatch (still going around on four legs) cannot be entirely ruled out. :)

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5:20 pm
August 8, 2010


Patrick

Investigator

posts 176

Finally watched the second segment.  At least they got the red lights in the sky one right.

12:19 am
August 10, 2010


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

Nosfer said: "I still think it has a good physical resemblence to a lion and possibly even a boar, although in my searches for boar video I was less and less convinced."

I was kind of shocked to read that you're still keeping the lion on the table.  It made me rethink my position on it.  After thinking about it…I'm still against it.  Tongue out

I still don't think that the lion really matches the gate on the creature in the video.  You do…so, it's a push.  I stated it would leave a noticeable "path of destruction" and you countered with a possible scenario of an escaped lion on a quick jaunt.  Odds are sky-rocketing, but I won't argue it.  However…I've got one more.

Both you and I have questioned many things about the video itself and the person that took the video.  Many things just don't pass the "smell test."  I think these things are leading to us to not  acknowledge the lion as a legimate choice.  The lion just isn't passing the smell test.

Outside of Africa, seeing a 500lb male lion just running about in a field would be an amazing thing.  There's no question there.  Seeing this AND having a camera to film it would be spectacular luck.  It would be in the "once in a lifetime" category.  I think we can both agree on that. 

And since that type of video would be "once in a lifetime" kind of a thing, it would be valuable.  A good video of a 500lb male lion walking around in Cornwall…a TV station would pay good money for it.  A bad video of a 500lb male lion walking around in Cornwall would still get some decent money on a slow news day from a TV station.  And…here's the most important one…even a unbelievably bad video of a 500lb male lion walking around in Cornwall…would still be labelled "lion"…not "Beast Of Dartmoor."

We could argue for eternity as to whether or not the creature in the video was actually a lion because the video is so bad and so short.  But the person who took the video made a conscious choice to call it "Beast of Dartmoor."  A 500lb male lion walking around in Cornwall certainly trumps a monster from Dartmoor.  It's like taking a gold bar, spray-painting it silver, and then trying to sell it as a bar of silver.  It just doesn't make any sense.

The only reason why the person would have called it a "beast (and not a lion)" and named "Dartmoor (not Cornell)" as the location was, I believe…to intentionally deceive.  The person that took the video knows full well what that animal is.  That's why the video is only 3 seconds long, edited in slow motion, as you brought up "possibly blurred after-the-fact", and the list goes on.

So…if the "beast" really was a lion…why go through all of the suspicious stuff?  Why do everything in your power to make it seem shady?  If it were really a lion, I have to believe that you would be doing the opposite.

That is why the lion, even after rethinking my position on it, is still of my list of crossed-off animals (as if my list means anything…Laughing ).

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

6:15 am
August 10, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2875

Revenant said:

Nosfer said: "I still think it has a good physical resemblence to a lion and possibly even a boar, although in my searches for boar video I was less and less convinced."

I was kind of shocked to read that you're still keeping the lion on the table.


No, that's not what I was saying.  Yes, the look IS there physically.  I've seen similar style exhibited in footage of lions. One other thing with the video, we know he slow-mo'ed it for the second part, we don't know if ANY of it is 1:1 speed.

Recall, also, that I said that looks aren't everything. 

I could even accept the unlikely event of placing a lion at the scene via a zoo escape or something similar, in fact in 1998 there was reportedly such a case in the southwest of England. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/218650.stm though I'm not sure this was thought to be an "escapee"

As I said, though, the "look" is wrong for the situation.  ie, a lion running like that.  There is only about one thing that will make a lion run like that.  I will propose another in a minute, but the footage that I've seen where the looks are similar is invariably taken about a second before the lion pounces onto the back of a wildebeast, gazelle, zebra, Dartmoor pony, etc.

Certainly the guy taking the footage would not have edited that out.  He could get money for a lion shot, but think of the extra change if the lion was taking down prey.  We don't see that, so I don't think that was what got the animal up to speed.

The other thing to get an animal running is fear.  Something either startled the animal and/or is chasing it.  For a lion to continue running like that I'd think it was more than being startled, it was subsequently being chased and in fear of it's life.  Problem is that the video stops at the end of the pan to the right. 

For the big bucks, the guy should have swung the camera back to the left to capture the animal chasing the lion.  An animal, I might add, that probably would have to be one that had gone extinct no later than the Pleistocene…unless it were a modern-day cat/boar hybrid :) .  Surely NEITHER of those would have been edited from the video!

So to repeat, given the uncertainty caused by the blurriness and short length of the video, I could see a lion as a possible physical suspect.  I could even come up with a way to put him at the scene that isn't too far-fetched.  It fails at "motive" though, where motive is "what is it's motivation for running like that"

I suppose my "motivation" angle is the same as your smell-test angle.  I do think a lion would/should make it into the later rounds of competition…until you look at the entire situation with full context.

FoF ruled out lion, too.  Although, on second thought, I'm not sure that really means much since I think they chose "supernatural mutant" for their final round!

Go back to the video on youtube and let it start to play.  Then hit pause and slide the progress indicator all the way over to the left to get the first frame.  Given the badness of the video it's not exactly proof positive, but you do see the animal in a bit different "form" there.  The next few frames as it leaps show the separation of what very likely are ears lifting above the back and then coming back down.  This is the second or third frame, not the initial frame…check the initial frame, too.

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11:53 pm
August 10, 2010


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

Hmmm…ok then, my bad.  It just seemed like you were still making a case for the lion in a way which, like I said, caused me to pause and rethink my position.  Which really, is a good thing.  I mean we're certainly not dealing with absolutes here.  Always willing to rethink my position on something.  And always willing to change my position if the argument against it is solid enough.

Nosfer said: "FoF ruled out lion, too.  Although, on second thought, I'm not sure that really means much since I think they chose "supernatural mutant" for their final round."

You know…I have to be honest.  I still feel a bit stunned over that one.  It's like you go fishing with a couple of friends.  You get a hit, but come up empty.  By the force of the hit and by the amount of splashing, you kind of wonder if it was a Small Mouth Bass or a Large Mouth Bass.  Maybe even a Catfish.  Your friends throw all of those out and go with an undead skeleton pirate who is cursed and looking for gold coins and simply mistook the fishing hook as a gold coin.  The stunned, quizzical look that I would have in that instance kind of illustrates what I probably looked like while watching FoF.  I was just sitting there just repeating the same word…"What?……What?……What?"

As for the picture…I'm still seeing a hare/jackrabbit. Laughing  Am I not supposed to see a hare/jackrabbit and instead supposed to be seeing something else?  Laughing  (I swear…I'm not being argumentative.  I just see a hare/jackrabbit…)

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

6:35 am
August 11, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2875

Revenant said:

As for the picture…I'm still seeing a hare/jackrabbit. Laughing  Am I not supposed to see a hare/jackrabbit and instead supposed to be seeing something else?  Laughing  (I swear…I'm not being argumentative.  I just see a hare/jackrabbit…)


And that's probably about all you'll ever see…I suppose if you really stretched your imagination, those could be curved horns, but then they would be static and not move/bounce as the animal moves.  I think some of the area that is seen as open space below them and the body is actually the lighter coat at the top where there is some illumination of the fur by the sun, but in subsequent frames you can see those "appendages" move to open and close the gap.

When I think of the cost it must have been to film this episode (air fare, car rental, time, etc) I get a bit disgusted.  I hope they made it all back in commercial revenues because SV could (and DID) do it for a heck of a lot cheaper…not only did it but did it much more correctly.

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6:42 pm
August 12, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2875

The guy filming the El Cajon lights…tells where he was, he was at a friends house a few houses away and came out and saw the lights…says nothing about going home to grab his camera. Innocent omission? Did he have his video camera with him at his friend's place?

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9:10 pm
August 13, 2010


Liz M

NY

Investigator

posts 30

I practically screamed at the tv when they mentioned a boar/cat hybrid.  Really?  I think even a high school student would know that the premise is preposterous.  But anyway, I don't understand why their "photography expert" didn't try to mimic the video using some kind of software.  I'm not an expert in photoshop or any of those other programs, but wouldn't it be possible to take different videos, merge them and then make them fuzzy beyond any recognition?  You could take the image of a lion running, make it look darker, add it to existing footage and then make it all fuzzy.  They almost did that when they super-imposed the pony, but they stopped short of thinking it could have been hoaxed/faked that way.

I'm not sure if it was this website or another, but at one time I found a site where someone demonstrated how they could use their photoshop-like program to re-create ghost photos in a very short period of time.  It would be interesting to see if someone could re-create the video.

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