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X-Rays And The Art World

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11:26 am
August 25, 2009


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

Many artists have painted over other older paintings for centuries.  That's nothing new.  Seeing the original painting without disturbing the paint of the newer painting is.  Here's the story:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090819153917.htm

"The new instrument, called a confocal X-ray fluorescence microscope, was developed at the Cornell High Energy Synchrotron Source (CHESS) national X-ray facility. The instrument reveals minute details in hidden paintings without removing paint samples. It shoots X-ray beams into a painting and then collects fluorescent X-ray "signals" given off by the chemicals in the various paint layers. Scientists can link each signal to specific paint pigments. In addition to revealing the original image, the method is providing new information on Wyeth's materials and methods. The same technique may ultimately reveal hidden images in paintings by other famed artists, the researchers say."

The art world has to be pretty excited about this.  If this technique really comes into its own, it should be really interesting to see art museums down the road.  Will they feature exhibits of famous painters with the original painting hung right next to an X-Ray photo of what's underneath?  And will the "original" X-Ray photo produced actually hold any monetary value?  And then there's the moral dilemma of showing artwork by an artist that chose not to show that particular piece and instead painted over it.  In any event, it should be intriguing to see what comes of this new technology.

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

2:13 pm
August 25, 2009


alicat

Lead Investigator

posts 1215

Thanks for the post.  I can see why the art community is very excited but I think it may be a bit of a mixed blessing.  Unless there is a signature or they can actually determine the tell tale style of that particular artist's brush strokes, how do they determine if the artist painted over their own work or that of another?  I guess we'll have to wait and see how this technology plays out.

2:25 pm
August 25, 2009


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2959

Boy, this cuts both ways! In cases of changes by the artist (ie not just someone reusing someone else's canvas), there's a reason he didn't go with his earlier version.

I'm thinking of myself in the artists shoes. How would I feel if someone managed to get a hold of earlier versions of some of my papers and publish those. I would be non-pleased!

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11:21 pm
August 25, 2009


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

alicat said:

Unless there is a signature or they can actually determine the tell tale style of that particular artist's brush strokes, how do they determine if the artist painted over their own work or that of another?  I guess we'll have to wait and see how this technology plays out.


Well, this is where an art historian will actually get to use his degree.  The lives of many famous painters, particularly in the last couple of centuries, are extremely well known.  They would probably be able to speculate whether or not the artist, given a certain time period, would typically paint over his own work or if he painted over the works of others.  This would probably have to do with things like personal wealth and fame at the time, availability of supplies, and so forth.  It wouldn't be 100% accurate, but just sort of used as a guideline.

If scientists can truly pinpoint the actual specific paint pigments used by the artist, that also kind of puts them in the correct ballpark.  Many painters create their own colors by adding this or that into them.  Maybe it won't say "yes, this was HIS blue" or anything, but it could possibly narrow down the country, region, and time period.

As for brush strokes, we'll have to wait and see.  The article does mention that the technology is providing information on "methods."  Not exactly sure what that implies.  It could imply what I was talking about in the second paragraph.  Or maybe it will be clear and clean enough some day to see brush strokes.  And if that is the case, well…then they've really hit the mother-load.  With that, they could definitely identify the painter.

Nosfer- Yeah…I'm right there with you.  Your example of writing is a fine one.  It would indeed be like publishing an author's first rough draft, complete with sentence fragments, misspelled words, and ideas that went no where.  Then people would read it and figure that they could pull some insight from it.  The author would be absolutely horrified.

There's a reason why first drafts aren't published and why paintings are painted over…the creators do not believe that these pieces are indicative of their talent and their intent. 

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

6:28 am
August 26, 2009


Oubliette

Igloo in NJ

Lead Investigator

posts 574

This might be interesting for a few paintings of really famous artists, but I wouldn't want to see too many of these underpaintings.  There's a reason why they were painted over and the artist felt they weren't good enough.  It is of great interest to art historians but in a way the magic of some beautiful world-renowned paintings might be brought down a notch or two. 

Hmm…on the other hand, it might be interesting to see how they did it but again, maybe just a few would suffice.  I'm really torn over this.  Should it be called "X-Ray Art"?

If 50 million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
Anatole France

9:00 am
August 26, 2009


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2959

I just had this vision of discovering various pages with the following written (and crossed out) on them:

E = MC^5

E/2 = MC*4

E = 1/2 * MC * MC (with the word "@$#$%" scrawled in the margin)

Legal: The content of this post is copyrighted and is intended exclusively for use on skepticalviewer.com It may not be copied, distributed, or redisplayed on any other site without the express written consent of the author.

1:36 pm
August 26, 2009


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

Nosfer said:

I just had this vision of discovering various pages with the following written (and crossed out) on them:

E = MC^5

E/2 = MC*4

E = 1/2 * MC * MC (with the word "@$#$%" scrawled in the margin)


You mean like reading Edgar Allan Poe's first rough draft of "The Raven" and finding out it was originally about a squirrel visiting him in summertime and Lenore was still alive and well?  I'd like to see the literary bobble-heads fight that one out… Laughing

Oubliette-  Maybe another way to look at it is that maybe the artist was wrong.  Maybe the painting underneath is even better, more beautiful, and more significant than the one on top.  I mean, it is a possibility.  Or that a lesser artist painted over a great one, maybe out of spite or stupidity.  But like yourself, I'm torn too.  Then again, that's always been a huge part of science…just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should.  At least in this particular case, nobody gets killed…always a plus… Wink

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

1:42 pm
August 26, 2009


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2959

Revenant said:

You mean like reading Edgar Allan Poe's first rough draft of "The Raven" and finding out it was originally about a squirrel visiting him in summertime and Lenore was still alive and well?  I'd like to see the literary bobble-heads fight that one out… Laughing

Oubliette-  Maybe another way to look at it is that maybe the artist was wrong.  Maybe the painting underneath is even better, more beautiful, and more significant than the one on top.  I mean, it is a possibility.  Or that a lesser artist painted over a great one, maybe out of spite or stupidity.  But like yourself, I'm torn too.  Then again, that's always been a huge part of science…just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should.  At least in this particular case, nobody gets killed…always a plus… Wink


Quoth the Raven "Okay, maybe just one more time, but this is the last"

A more beautiful work, but to who (the whole "beauty is in the eye of the beholder thing") If it's one artist painting over the work of someone else, I can see the value. If it's one artist desperate for canvas and with great regret paints over an earlier work, I can lean more towards acceptance. If it turns out that Mona Betty looked horrible and Leonardo was much more happy with his next subject, then I think we've gone too far…especially if the Betty is only partially completed to the point where he threw down his brush in disgust.

Legal: The content of this post is copyrighted and is intended exclusively for use on skepticalviewer.com It may not be copied, distributed, or redisplayed on any other site without the express written consent of the author.

10:20 am
August 27, 2009


Learjet

Australia

Lead Investigator

posts 1122

I guess I've known about this since the early 80's when I had a book on infrared photography. They showed various filter's effect when photographing artwork and also went into xrays to a small degree. The longer IR wavelengths penetrate deeper, but I've never seen an example so clear as the above shorter wavelength xray images.

My sister is an artist and you can definitely see the early brush marks in IR. Fascinating stuff isn't it.

OD'd on EMF

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