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1:51 pm
January 3, 2009
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T.A.Sharps
| | Iowa | |
| Investigator | posts 60 |
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Can anyone point out any evidence on the show that even we here at Skeptical Viewer cannot debunk? Since us super debunkers here have the ability to include into our equation that the evidence has been hoaxed.
There have been threads like this before, but I thought this would be more concise. I personally cannot think of any examples, but I know some of you here go into way more detail in watching than I do.
For example, the Frank's bag occurence, looks very credable, but we do not know anything about Frank, so we must assume the worst is possible, such as him being an actor. Second the evidence, there could of been some kind of line to pull the bag up. Ther only credable part really I think is Brian's camera catches it by random movement.
But there has been threads on possibilities, this is for things WE cannot debunk.
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" Your reality Sir is lies and balderdash and I am delighted to say I have no grasp of it whatsoever!"
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3:05 pm
January 3, 2009
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Queen of the Nerds
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| Investigator | posts 105 |
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T.A.Sharps said:
For example, the Frank's bag occurence, looks very credable, but we do not know anything about Frank, so we must assume the worst is possible, such as him being an actor. Second the evidence, there could of been some kind of line to pull the bag up. Ther only credable part really I think is Brian's camera catches it by random movement.
I just went to http://www.imdb.com and looked up Frank DeAngelis. His only credits are in the sound department. That doesn't mean that he has never been an actor under a different name, it just means that he hasn't worked under "Frank DeAngelis" as an actor. He worked as the sound supervisor on Ghost Hunters from 2004-2006 and that was his last credit. Does anyone know when that particular episode was shot? Since that was his last credited work, does that mean that he quit? Maybe he was really scared…
I don't know if the camera bag incident was real or faked. If it was faked I don't think that Frank had anything to do with it. If Frank was in on it, he deserved an award for his performance. It seemed authentic to me because of his reactions. Also, I don't think that they (J & G) would pull a hoax where an innocent person had the possibility of getting hurt like that. Maybe, if Frank had agreed to it, I could see them doing it. I would love to see an interview with Frank to find out what he really had to say about it. I'm sure that he signed a confidentiality agreement, but I think it would be interesting anyway.
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If you believe in telekinesis, raise my hands.
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7:30 pm
January 3, 2009
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Stephen
| | San Jose, CA | |
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The St. Augustine shadow at the top of the lighthouse is a big contender. Now, I suspect that to be exactly what it looked like– a shadow, cast by someone below. I don't think it was an intentional hoax. I don't think I can say what it was definitely, though, without heading to a lighthouse myself and duplicating it.
Jay's breaking glass at the Stanley Hotel. Could it have been hoaxed? Sure, quite easily. Could the glass have just happened to break right then, due to the room getting colder? Maybe. Was the room getting colder because there was a draft that was opening and closing the door? Possibly. I'll never know. The event is a mess, and I don't think I'll ever know what happened there.
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Stephen the Friendly Skeptic
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2:52 am
January 4, 2009
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Sabrina
| | Elk Grove, CA | |
| Investigator | posts 27 |
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Queen of the Nerds said:
Since that was his last credited work, does that mean that he quit? Maybe he was really scared…
I have heard that he quit the show shortly after that episode, but I don't have any sources to quote … just forum "gossip".
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If you ain't laughing … you ain't living! May your life be like toilet paper … long and useful.
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6:34 am
January 4, 2009
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Hedge96
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The gossip I saw about Frank wasn't nice but that seems to be a pattern.
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11:57 am
January 4, 2009
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KidSkeptic
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I have heard that he quit the show shortly after that episode, but I don't have any sources to quote … just forum "gossip".
I thought i heard Jay and Grant comment that he left the show after this. It was durning one of the discusions groups they do after the live halloween special
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12:36 pm
January 4, 2009
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CrowTRobot
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@ T.A.Sharps
I agree that the incident with Frank's bag seems to be the most credible. And, this has been discussed before, most around here agree that if there was a hoax, Frank wasn't in on it. Now, did his bag get snagged on something? Possibly. Was someone just playing a practical joke that got out of hand; thus, being too ashamed/embarrassed/scared to admit? Well, now that we know TAPS does this, it certainly is a possibliity. And of course there is always the possiblity that it was, indeed, something paranormal.
@ Stephen
The St Augustine Lighthouse is probably my favorite episode. I think this epitomizes what this show could and should be. They didn't really catch anything paranormal, but they did find some things that made you go "Hmmmm". You suggested that what was at the top of the stairs could've been a shadow cast from someone below. True. I always suspected it was a large bird. Either way, not a diliberate hoax. Now, if I recall correctly, there was a voice….not sure what to make of that – wind? bird? Don't know; but again, I don't think it was a diliberate hoax.
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12:47 pm
January 4, 2009
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A Adams
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Falling down hard isn’t fun to fake, I would assume, at least not for the avg Joe. How rough physically have the "spirits" gotten with GH members? We’re talking knocking down a full grown man. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t other possibilites as you’ve mentioned have been discussed like maybe he was spooked or in a jumpy mood and felt something and then as he jerked just got tangled up in his equipment and went down or he could have tried to save the equipment and that contributed to the fall. But again, do nasty knock down falls happen with regular GH investigators or to usually "unknown" members? Have J or G been hit hard ever? I would tend to feel hard hits are more credible than anything, depending on the circumstances though.
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1:28 pm
January 4, 2009
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T.A.Sharps
| | Iowa | |
| Investigator | posts 60 |
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Not to try to keep this going as a Frank thread, but just the fact that he works for them, to me, makes him a possible hoaxer. He may or may not be, I would lean tward he was real, if he wasn't working for them. There was that other questionable time when a film crew member had an experience when Grant needed a light, and the table jumped that his leg happened to be under.
Just looking at the footage it looks authentic, but there is a way it could have been faked.
The lighthouse is one that I can't see a real way that it could have been faked, I don't know enough about the FLIR cam to speculate on it. Maybe something with time laps in editing for when the thing shoots up the stares fast, but I don't know.
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" Your reality Sir is lies and balderdash and I am delighted to say I have no grasp of it whatsoever!"
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11:06 pm
January 4, 2009
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Stephen
| | San Jose, CA | |
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I don't see anything about Frank's adventure that makes it a hoax-or-ghost situation. Going by memory (of watching the thing repeatedly) here, but at least in Brian's shot we don't really see the bag start moving. Anything could have started it going, including Frank stumbling on the catwalk.
Someone falling on a catwalk, then trying to right himself, then falling back again, can make a bunch of odd movements. If he's got a bag that's attached to him via a variety of cables, it would be easy enough for him to accidentally tug on one of them, or have it swing in his direction. From his perspective, though, it might seem like the bag rose on its own and bopped him one.
So I don't see any reason to suspect Frank of hoaxing. The incident could be an accident, and either way I don't see it as compelling evidence. We just don't see exactly what starts that bag moving.
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Stephen the Friendly Skeptic
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11:19 pm
January 4, 2009
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Stephen
| | San Jose, CA | |
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As for the voice in St. Augustine, that's one of the reasons I think serious ghost hunters should keep weather records. A lighthouse is a great place to create vocal simulacra. (Like that term? I just made it up. It means "stuff that sounds like voices but aren't.") Brian H. gave a speech where he mentioned that it was extremely windy that night. All that it takes to create a voice is a tube and a whistle, and a lighthouse with open windows provides both in spades.
Also, watch Grant just before one of the "help me" incidents. Watch his mouth. I haven't found the DVD yet to review it, but as I recall there's something interesting going on there. :)
You're right– it's usually one of the younger members that gets hit hard. One of the many reason that "falling over" makes the List of the Unimpressive.
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Stephen the Friendly Skeptic
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1:26 pm
January 5, 2009
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Dedicated_Dad
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This is – IMHO – the problem: There's simply no way that any evidence could ever convince everyone.
Anything – heck, EVERYTHING – could be faked SOMEHOW.
There's almost always an "explanation" unless it happens TO YOU. Even then, SOME people believe every dust-orb-photo is evidence of paranormal activity, some – if a spirit sat down and held a conversation with them on video – would check themselves into a mental hospital before believing what they experienced was paranormal.
Personally, I try to be as skeptical as possible without closing my mind completely. If not for my own "personal experiences" I'd be in the "take me to the nut-hut" camp, but those un-deniable (for me) experiences force me to admit the possibility that what happens to others could be just as real.
DD
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11:07 pm
January 5, 2009
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Stephen
| | San Jose, CA | |
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Not true, DD. All I ask for is evidence that's compelling and verifiable. Sure, any one event might be faked, but if there's a solid pattern of events that I can verify, or have verified by people I trust, I'm all for it. I'm a skeptic, not a denier.
Let's say, for example, that Frank's fall had been caught on two cameras, and we could build a solid model of the bag's movements, and that they obviously defied the laws of physics. Then it would be time to head to Philly. (I haven't had a decent cheesesteak in months anyway.) Or, more plausibly, call for a followup investigation.
Sometimes skeptics say, "It's worthless trying to talk to believers. Their minds are made up." Sometimes believers say the same thing about skeptics. Sometimes they're right– but if they're wrong, they've both missed an opportunity, and they've disrespected another human being.
Update: Looking at this later, it came out harsher than I intended. Not meant as an attack on Dedicated_Dad.
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Stephen the Friendly Skeptic
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4:27 am
January 6, 2009
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dr_peter_venkman
| | Rochester, NY | |
| Investigator | posts 99 |
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Stephen said:
I don't see anything about Frank's adventure that makes it a hoax-or-ghost situation. Going by memory (of watching the thing repeatedly) here, but at least in Brian's shot we don't really see the bag start moving. Anything could have started it going, including Frank stumbling on the catwalk.
I agree. This doesn't look like a hoax. As I remember, the footage was caught on Brian's camera not by one of the crew. He just happened to have it aimed in the right direction. Compare this with Grant's "dum-de-dum-de-dum" stroll in front of the camera during collargate. There are a few possible explanations for Frank's bag swinging up. I would put simple horseplay by the crew on the list.
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Hee hee hee! "Get her!" That was your whole plan, huh, "get her." Very scientific.
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7:55 pm
January 6, 2009
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Dedicated_Dad
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Stephen said:
Not true, DD. All I ask for is evidence that's compelling and verifiable. Sure, any one event might be faked, but if there's a solid pattern of events that I can verify, or have verified by people I trust, I'm all for it. I'm a skeptic, not a denier.
…
Update: Looking at this later, it came out harsher than I intended. Not meant as an attack on Dedicated_Dad.
My comment was intended to illustrate the extremes, wasn't directed at anyone in particular…
Your comment wasn't offensive to me at all… If that was harsh, well… Some folks must bruise a bit easier than I do… 
I think we're pretty much on the samepage really, though I'd wager my "personal experiences" may make me just a smidge more likely to "believe"…
DD
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11:27 pm
January 6, 2009
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Stephen
| | San Jose, CA | |
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Ah! Sorry, I'll try harder to offend you next time. :)
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Stephen the Friendly Skeptic
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