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The solution to "the Grant list" – what could be changed to reduce or eliminate suspicion?

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9:27 pm
December 10, 2008


Dedicated_Dad

Investigator

posts 64

Hi all.  I've been thinking on this topic for some time.  I found this forum because of my own dissatisfaction with much of what I've seen on GH.  Ithought it might be good to – rather than all sing in harmony about our suspicions – discuss what could be done to alleviate them.

(A) "Disembodied Voices" -

(1) Ensure that no cell-phones, walkies, or other PLAYABLE audio devices are carried by anyone.  Seeing Grant with a digi-recorder WITH A SPEAKER BUILT IN is insane, especially given the current controversies.  Noone should carry anything capable of making any voice-like noises.

(B) "K2 stuff"

(1) As above, no cell phones, walkies, keyless-entry transmitters (car key or fob) or anything else capable of setting off the K2 is carried by anyone.

(2) "Flash once for no, twice for yes" – treating a no-flash as a negative response is patently absurd.

(C) "Missed Evidence"

(1) with their budget, Pilgrim/TAPS should be able to set up at least (2) stationary cameras in every area, thus covering everyone in the room.  There's just no excuse for not being able to see Grant to ensure he wasn't throwing coat hangers – all this would take would be (2) cheap infra-red cameras in opposite corners of each room. 

(2) The illumination could be provided by a cordless (battery-powered) IR in the middle of the ceiling, thus eliminating the "glare" objection.

(a) Funny, but this would also allow the use of "helmet cams" and eliminate the only sane objection to them as well.

(3) As others have said many times, the "lights out" thing never made sense to me.  Most activity occurs in well-lit areas, so why (other than upping the "scooby-doo spooky-factor) have everyone sitting in the dark?

Further, that we (the audience) can see so clearly leads to misunderstandings – it's easy to forget they are sitting in total darkness. 

(D) Contaminated evidence:  This one is complicated. 

(1) First, it should be obvious that everything should be shut down.  Seeing a computer – with speakers – running on tonight's show, in the same area where they claimed to hear "female laughter" was ridiculous.  Why was that even running?  If they're going "lights out" then why was all power not cut at the breaker box?  This would also help ensure no stray EMF.  Knowing there were live power circuits now shreds any and all EMF or K2 "evidence" they may have ever gathered.  Sweep the place when all circuits are on, looking for EMF "hot spots" that may debunk reported feelings or experiences, then cut all power to the building to ensure you're not polluting your results…  This would also help prevent hoaxing by hosts – at least they'd have to use battery-powered devices…

(2) It seems to me it would be simple to provide each person on site with a GPS recorder, which would keep track of exactly where everyone was at a given time.  This data could be easily combined, and then they could be sure that it wasn't a team-member or crew walking upstairs that created the "footsteps" they heard, or that "apparition" captured on the FLIR was not the sound-guy waiting down the hall.  Total cost around $100 per person.

(3) As noted above, noone should be allowed to carry any device capable of making sounds, or emitting any sort of radio or EMF energy.  Speakers should be removed from palm-corders, digi-audio recorders, etc. 

(4) A rule should be set and enforced that every vocal utterance be preceded by an ID of some sort – their name, a number – something to ID them.  If someone speaks they should say "THREE – did you hear that" or "Grant – DAMN it's cold!!"  This way, when evidence is being reviewed, it would be easy to know when it was a team-member speaking.

(5) All equipment should be time-synced, down to the second, immediately before each investigation.  This would enable surety that the FLIR footage and the other camera footage could be viewed side-by-side and no questions about whether they were shot at the same time.  This is not as hard as it seems – any decent watch will be accurate to less than a second over 12 hours – if everyone synced their watches then ensured the equipment matched when they set it up, it would add little time to their setup and yield tremendous benefit.  It would also be simple to double-check the FLIR or hand-cam when they picked it up, likewise to time-stamp any audio captured by stating the time on the recorder.

(6) Extraneous noises caused by crew should be identified on audio.  "I just tripped."  "Squeaky door hinge."  "Loose, squeaky floor board"…  Or the like.  This would keep "review" from labeling a squeaky floor as an EVP"…

I have more, but I am tired.  I welcome any input you may have!!

Thanks!!

DD

11:02 pm
December 10, 2008


SkepticalRader

California

Investigator

posts 38

Dedicated Dad, you make a lot of valid points, however, something tells me that even if they adopted half of your suggestions then they wouldn't have a show. I think the point is, they don't want to take such stringent measures, this way it is easier to proclaim anything that can't obviously be explained as a paranormal event. You're suggesting a scientific methodology, which I personally would like to see, but I won't hold my breath waiting for it. In spite of J & G's claims to conduct scientific investigations their investigations are anything but.

As far as K2 meters. I cringe every time I see J get excited about the K2 meter (read "modern day ouija board") and the partially assembled flash light. How scientific is that?

2:21 am
December 11, 2008


Stephen

San Jose, CA

Admin

posts 589

Dedicated_Dad: Great stuff. That would be the proper solution to accusations of hoaxing: changing their methods to eliminate the suspicion.

I agree with you on adding more video cameras. These are not expensive. Even without Pilgrim's help, they certainly should be able to afford more than four cameras by now. The feeds should be copied immediately and sent immediately after the investigation to a trusted third party to prevent tampering. Same with all digital audio. They should make this evidence available to other investigators, including skeptics.

I also like the GPS idea. However, it's sometimes a problem to get GPS signals indoors– I'd imagine they'd have a hard time using them to investigate the Edinburgh Vaults, for example. You'd have to run some GPS repeaters in, and maybe supplement them with DGPS or something. Probably expensive, but possible. But how do you prevent investigators from just taking their GPS recorders off if they want to do something unrecorded?

Many of your rules are excellent, but would be difficult to enforce. For example, how can we, the viewers, be sure that Grant doesn't have a digital recorder hidden in his pocket? How can we ensure that he doesn't bring string into the building? The same applies to the speech ID protocol. It requires us to trust that they'll follow it, and follow it absolutely. If I had that trust, I wouldn't be questioning them in the first place.

Finally, TAPS needs to present their evidence themselves, formally, instead of hiding behind a television production company.

Actually, TAPS doesn't have to do any of these things. I just won't trust their evidence until they do.

Stephen the Friendly Skeptic

7:11 am
December 11, 2008


Wes

Spaulding Inn, Room 38

Investigator

posts 142

Hi Dedicated_Dad,

Your suggestions are valid, but the reality is, as has been previously posted by myself and others, this is a TV show, and the ultimate goal is ratings, not the advancement of paranormal research.

This is why, IMO, the emphasis has moved from investigating and debunking to finding evidence — things that can be presented on TV, such as the K-II, EVPs, FLIR images … no matter how dubious they may be.

"The truth shall bear all light."

9:22 am
December 11, 2008


Dedicated_Dad

Investigator

posts 64

I guess I should have made more clear that my thought-process here is not "things TAPS should do…" but rather "what could be done to reduce or eliminate accusations of hoaxing."  Though I'd like to see TAPS do these things, I absolutely understand the thoughts about it being a TV show, etc…

Still, I would love to hear any more input anyone may have.  Who knows – maybe one of us will be the guy who gets the "truly skeptical" break and his own show??!!

As to the K2 stuff – IF:

a room has been searched for EMF,
all power is cut,
steps are taken to ensure that noone is carrying any sort of EMF or RFI emitter
A pattern has been established – as in "two for yes/one for no"
Repeated but reworded questions indicate the same response – if the answer is "yes" to one question, then reverse the wording of the question and get a "no" response…

I honestly can't imagine more compelling evidence than some of the stuff I have seen where the "spirit" seems to be clearly responding to questions.  I agree the current standards are too low, but if the standards above were followed??!!

If you disagree, would you please help me understand why?  I'm not here to argue about it, but rather truly want to understand your objection.  It's a learning process.

As to "modern day ouija board" – I sort of agre with you, to a point.  I understand the potential for fakery, but I've seen a ouija marker move – rapidly and repetitively to 4 separate points – with noone touching it.  This is one of the experiences that led me to be interested in the PN – seeking to understand what I saw.  There were no strings, no magnets, no nothing – just a group of 4 flipped-out 18-20 year-olds who (IMHO) were messing with things better left alone.  It's been 25 years and the hair on the back of my neck is standing up as I type this…  I've had nothing to do with such thing since, and never will. 

I get the "why would spirits play a game from Parker Brothers" view as I've seen posted elsewhere, but personally I don't believe the "material" is relevant – could just as easily be a piece of paper, a marker and a juice glass – it's the minds of the people and whatever they manage to "contact" IMHO.  I was without question POSITIVE that someone else was moving it, but the damn thing jumped hard enough that everyone recoiled and jerked their hands back in a defensive posture.  The planchette continued to jerk from point to point, all over the board, several times – repeatedly going from "U" to "NO" to "1" to "2" to "NO" then back to "U" and repeated several times until one of the other guys swept the whole thing onto the floor. U-NO-1-2-NO…U-NO-1-2…

"You don't want to know…"

Whatever it was, it was 100% correct.  I DIDN'T want to know.  I left that house immediately, and managed to force myself to go back the next day to get my few belongings.  I'd happily have slept on a park-bench but was never spending another night in that house.

Since then, given I've seen and experienced some other (though admittedly less convincing) stuff I can't explain, I've decided I DO want to know – which is why I am here.

Even if TAPS did all the things we suggest, unless they were stripped naked then dressed in scrubs provided by some trusted 3rd party with it being a TV show we'd still be in a position where you'd either have to trust them or discount everything as a hoax…  There really isn't any middle-ground.

With all that said, What could they reasonably do to allow you to accept K2 results as valid?

DD

10:58 am
December 11, 2008


Stephen

San Jose, CA

Admin

posts 589

I agree with DD: although TAPS probably won't take our suggestions, what COULD they do? If we had our own paranormal TV show (terrifying thought), how could we show convincing evidence?

The K2 is an EMF detector with lights. It's easy to set it off with a walkie-talkie. So what we'd need to do is set it up so that there was no conventional explanation for any activity.

So we put it in a Faraday cage, which should block out any external interference. Don't allow anyone or anything else in there (except for ghosts, I guess). Put a video camera outside the cage to record results. Set up your protocol in advance. The only problem with "one for no, two for yes" is that there's still some ambiguity. Is a bright flash followed by a small flicker a yes or a no? I'd prefer them to say "yes", wait thirty seconds for a response, then do the same for "no". Release the whole tape with all the yeses and nos and null responses.

Would a single incidence of that convince me? No, although it would certainly make me scratch my head. But if they were able to repeat it a few times, with people I trusted validating the Faraday cage and the rest, then that would bring me a great deal closer.

DD, I appreciate that you've had a personal experience, and I encourage you to post a full account or two under "possibly paranormal".

Stephen the Friendly Skeptic

1:23 pm
December 11, 2008


Dedicated_Dad

Investigator

posts 64

The problem with a Faraday cage is that its design is to block EMF, which is exactly how the "spirit" is allegedly flashing the lights.  Might as well remove the batteries…

IMHO, it's fairly easy to discern whether something is "random" or not – one vid I've seen showed questions being asked in different ways, but consistently receiving the same "answer" – hard to chalk that up to
random interference though easily faked by someone with a walkie in their pocket…

This is where IMHO the strict protocol comes into play…

DD

10:22 pm
December 11, 2008


Stephen

San Jose, CA

Admin

posts 589

Sure, the ghost creates EMF to manifest, but surely it can walk through walls, right? Or can I make a ghost-proof house by turning the walls into a Faraday cage? Forget hunting ghosts– I should be able to catch them now!

Without shielding, we can't eliminate hoaxing. If the phenomenon only appears when we can't eliminate hoaxing, then it isn't proof of hoaxing– but it's awfully convenient.

Stephen the Friendly Skeptic

4:24 am
December 12, 2008


Learjet

Australia

Lead Investigator

posts 1122

Just keep Grand half a mile away from the K2 meter. That should do it. Wink

Have any of the other team members ever had a good old conversation with a ghost using the K2 meter when Grant wasn't there? Correct me if I'm wrong but I can't think of any.

Maybe this should be added to the Grant list.

OD'd on EMF

7:55 am
December 12, 2008


Wes

Spaulding Inn, Room 38

Investigator

posts 142

How about first studying EMF fields to determine how prevalent they are, how they act and change, what causes them to fluctuate (if they do), when, where and how they can be detected, what are the variables associated with the testing equipment, etc., etc., etc.

In other words, at this point using EMF detectors to investigate the paranormal is no more scientific than using a barometer or radon detector — or have I missed the study showing the correlation between EMFs and supposedly haunted locations?Wink

"The truth shall bear all light."

1:49 pm
December 12, 2008


Learjet

Australia

Lead Investigator

posts 1122

Wes said:

How about first studying EMF fields to determine how prevalent they are, how they act and change, what causes them to fluctuate (if they do), when, where and how they can be detected…


EM fields most certainly change and fluctuate.

Let's see if I can post this spectrall analysis from Spectrum Laboratory software to demonstrate that fact.

This is a 40 second waterfall display scan of the EM fields in my neighbourhood recorded with a PC and small hand held probe antenna. The top section reads real time peak values. Below that is a 40 second scan waterfall display with frequency response from 0 – 22,050 Hertz. The bottom of the display oldest, the top newest as it is constantly scrolling downwards. Imagine it as a picture that's been painted over a period of 40 seconds of time.

Strong line noise and harmonics are seen below (to the left of) 4000 Hertz. In this example there are harmonic bursts of activity up to about 11,000 Hertz roughly every 8 seconds that switch on and off. The horizontal lines near the start and finish of the bursts look like switch clicks, but othes between may be lightning. Other features visible are strong spikes at 19 and 19.8 KHz. The spike at 19K in this case is actually the computer display. The 19.8KHz spike is city wide and at present I can't identify. Every now and then it switches off also.

Imagine trying to take a baseline reading with this going on.

OD'd on EMF

3:14 pm
December 12, 2008


Dedicated_Dad

Investigator

posts 64

Here's a compelling vid – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woSmmy6dvIc

I can't help but note what is said between 1:50 and 1:53.  Imagine that…  Undecided

Please don't think I am saying "this is evidential proof that K2 lets one have a conversation with ghosts" – again, pay close attention to what is said between 1:50 and 1:53. 

EDIT:  Don't get me wrong -there's lots wrong with this video – I'm referring to the sort of questioning and repetitive verification…

What I *AM* saying is that this is the sort of careful verification which I COULD – if I was present or had absolute trust in everyone who was – consider pretty compelling.

There's an old saying which goes something like "Once is accident.  Twice is coincidence.  Three times is enemy action."

Thoughts?

EDIT:  Part 2 is here… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0fbaHHYz34

4:46 pm
December 12, 2008


Leslie

Investigator

posts 157

Learjet- Thanks for the graphic on the EM fields. It's a real eye-opener (for me) as to what is going on around us. I mean, I've always known (or assumed), but it's fascinating to see it laid out in front of me.

How would you take a baseline reading in this?

7:23 pm
December 12, 2008


Learjet

Australia

Lead Investigator

posts 1122

Baselines are not really used or needed with this type of equipment, as the noise floor is always visible.

You wouldn't believe the things you can see with this thing. Here, the neighbours are using a power drill. 0 – 7000 Hertz, right in the range of a standard EMF meter.

The Valpro video does have some compelling hits. I think I made a comment on the TAPS forum that either someone or something is setting it off. Unfortunately it has "you know who" in the same room and he is constantly fiddling with it. After coatgate I don't trust him anywhere near a K2!

OD'd on EMF

10:21 am
December 13, 2008


Dr. Peter Venkman

Guest

Dedicated_Dad said:

Here's a compelling vid – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woSmmy6dvIc


Thanks for the links

With a spirit this cooperative, you would think investigators with 18 years experience would have more revealing questions to ask.  

Think each person on the tour could face away from the others and hold out 1,2, or 3 fingers ?

The spirit should be able to see and report the correct number no problem.  

How about a simple "eyetest" ?  Can they see IR or UV ?  Can the spirits see iin the dark ?  If so, then "lights out" appears to be worthless.

Do they even know if it's night or day ?

As far as what could be changed … they could have a small RF detector and place it next to the K2 - It could be demonstrated each time that their car alarm transmitters WILL set it off, and not the K2.

4:22 pm
December 14, 2008


Dedicated_Dad

Investigator

posts 64

Here's another one that should be added to the list:  NEVER re-use a tape.  I think many of the so-called "apparitions" are caused by remnants of previous recording bleeding through when the tape is re-used. 

This would leave a barely-perceptible figure – just like what we so often see…

Thus tapes should always be brand new, out of the package, and preferably hit with a degausser or other super-strong magnetic field to be sure there's nothing left on the tape…

DD

PS:  I've thought of this for a long time but never posted it before.  Prompted by watching the "GA" "Goldfield Hotel" thing – you know those poor students reused their tapes…  Take an old tape with someone in a white tee-shirt, record over it, and get their "full-bodied apparition" seen in the room with "nick"…

5:50 am
December 19, 2008


Learjet

Australia

Lead Investigator

posts 1122

"The 19.8KHz spike is city wide and at present I can't identify."

Thanks to professor Bob Holzworth I just found out what this is. It's a US military transmission from north west cape, over 3000 Km away!

OD'd on EMF

1:18 pm
December 19, 2008


Queen of the Nerds

Orange County, CA

Investigator

posts 105

 If Grant and Jason passed a lie detector test that showed that the show does not fabricate evidence then I wouldn't be as skeptical.

If you believe in telekinesis, raise my hands.

10:13 am
December 20, 2008


Stephen

San Jose, CA

Admin

posts 589

Learjet, that is a cool piece of technology. I wonder if it could be modified or augmented to track signal sources in 3D? I think there's military hardware to do that. If we could pinpoint the signal source, I'd be willing to forgo the Faraday cage.

Stephen the Friendly Skeptic

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