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The New Bedford Armory: Season 1 (The Infamous Episode)

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8:01 am
June 11, 2008


wwayneross

San Diego

Investigator in Training

posts 6

I'm waiting for the day when remote cameras, mics and other sensors are set up in a "locked down" paramornal active spot for a month and the real- time feed would be available on the internet. Depending on how it's done, If something is caught in that setting, I believe it could really validate paranormal activity.

10:26 am
June 14, 2008


Oubliette

Igloo in NJ

Lead Investigator

posts 574

Actually, I remember a few such webcams that are running constantly. I don't have the sites right at hand, but there is one in Ireland in an old mill where a young woman fell to her death. Wait, there are a couple always running at the Willard Library in Indiana. Here's the URL:

http://www.libraryghost.com/

Just click on one of the webcam's link in the upper right hand corner of the page.

I'm sure there's more. Unfortunately, I can't think of any that have produced any major breakthroughs, though :(

If 50 million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
Anatole France

12:41 pm
November 26, 2008


SkepticalRader

California

Investigator

posts 38

Here's food for thought.

I was reading Jason and Grant's book "Ghost Hunting" about this incident and Jason was talking about how everyone, including the crew, play practical jokes on each other. He said that Frank had tripped one of the cameramen, in the dark, prior to the incident. My first thought was how stupid that was, tripping the cameraman who's carrying that valuable equipment. My next thought was that the cameraman got a little payback by pulling, from behind, on Frank's equipment bag. Possible? I haven't seen the footage in so long and can't remember if anyone was behind Frank. But if you were the person who pulled this kind of trick, would you own up to it, after seeing the results?

12:44 pm
November 26, 2008


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2957

Very interesting about the tripping. I don't recall the scene clearly enough to remember if there was anyone behind Frank or not. But the whole playing tricks and games on each other in the dark does cast more shadow on things.

Legal: The content of this post is copyrighted and is intended exclusively for use on skepticalviewer.com It may not be copied, distributed, or redisplayed on any other site without the express written consent of the author.

12:55 pm
November 26, 2008


Logisti

Admin

posts 177

Wow, I really hope he didn't actually trip a camera operator while the guy had the camera out and on his shoulder. In my book, that's what's known as a "d**k move".  If that really did happen though, and the camera guy slipped his hand under the audio-bag strap from behind and pulled (as revenge), I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't claim ownership of the incident after seeing how potentially bad it turned out — with Frank on the floor, half-conscious.

1:03 pm
November 26, 2008


SkepticalRader

California

Investigator

posts 38

I'm always surpised how Jason and Grant, who claim to be skeptical, don't always think about "physcial world" explanations before settling on the paranormal ones? Case in point, when I saw the Eastern State Penitentiary figure, the red flags went up immediately. My first thought was "you've just had someone pull your leg. Can you not see the feet under the blanket?" As I recall they claimed that everyone was accounted for. Everyone? That's why it has always been so easy to dupe people. They can't believe that someone would go to the trouble of sneaking off to do it, so they talk themselves into accepting the explanation which is the most fantastic over the one that is the most logical and probable.

When they clearly see the figure of a man in the thermal camera they don't automatically assume that it's a live person, but instead jump to the most illogical conclusion that it's a ghost.

3:53 pm
November 26, 2008


CrowTRobot

Investigator

posts 228

I'm not much on practical jokes to begin with, but I would think the absolute last place for such silliness would be on a ghost hunt…..assuming someone wanted to be taken seriously, like, oh, I don't know……TAPS!

People are walking around in the dark, presumably in a building they're unfamiliar with, and some, d**k (as Logisti accurately put it) starts goofing around. Taint funny, Magee. Aside from all the normal dangers, how can any 'evidence' collected be trusted? I'm still surprised at some of the foolishness GH pulls, and Pilgrims keeps in, for broadcast.

Recently, Steve knocked on, or threw something, and Krysten asked if it was him; he said no and laughed. I guess we veiwers are suppose to think, "HAHAHA that Steve, contaminating an investigation with fake evidence. What a card."

Now that I think about it, I wonder how much of their evidence can be explained away by practical jokes?  Certainly the FLIR crap that shows people running across a hallway, or doing the 'goofy walk' is even more suspicious.

I….I'm thinking.

4:38 pm
November 26, 2008


SkepticalRader

California

Investigator

posts 38

I, too, an NOT into practical jokes. I wonder if that's a common trait among skeptical people?

3:26 pm
December 2, 2008


T.A.Sharps

Iowa

Investigator

posts 60

I think this episode is one of the most interresting ones, certainly one that made me look at GH in a more creditable light.

BUT…

Things on here have confirmed some of my curiousities and suspisions over the years, now I have to look at the show, and regaurdless of any natural or alternative explanation, I have to ask

"…can they fake this?"

If there is a way to, then I think the evidence looses about 51% of its credibility then, and the only real way I could believe in the show again is to actually have the oportunity to debunk the debunkers.

For this episode the answer to the question is "Yes" that could have been faked.  I'm not going to make any assumtions on character of people involved, the only people on GH that I think are credible are the ones who are no longer on it.

Basically, they could have rigged up some type of line to the camera bag, yanked it up, then Frank takes a fall and acts all distraught.

We don't know anything about Frank before or after this episode, accept for when J talks to him and reviews what happened.  Although I will say he "seems" authentic in his reaction, you can tell when someone is acting, like Grant sometimes reacting to something like the jaket tug.

The one creditable thing in this instance I think is the camera Brian is holding is not fixed on Frank or is moving in a way that seems really intent on catching this evidence when it happens, like the camera work with Grants jaket tug where the camera is right on him the whole time, for some reason.

" Your reality Sir is lies and balderdash and I am delighted to say I have no grasp of it whatsoever!"

10:45 am
December 4, 2008


BarkingZouave

Investigator in Training

posts 3

Just wanted to add my two cents: I worked as an audio recordist in the film industry (I'm retired now)- and I just want to point out that those bags with the recorders in them are HEAVY. I've never actually weighed my kit, but I reckon it probably weighed around 20 lbs. I used to use a bit of sheepskin to protect my shoulder whilst wearing the bag because of the weight. It would take quite a bit of force, even if Frank himself jerked the bag to make it fly up like that and whack himself in the face.

11:29 am
March 14, 2009


Hannah

Texas

Lead Investigator

posts 361

BarkingZouave said:

Just wanted to add my two cents: I worked as an audio recordist in the film industry (I'm retired now)- and I just want to point out that those bags with the recorders in them are HEAVY. I've never actually weighed my kit, but I reckon it probably weighed around 20 lbs. I used to use a bit of sheepskin to protect my shoulder whilst wearing the bag because of the weight. It would take quite a bit of force, even if Frank himself jerked the bag to make it fly up like that and whack himself in the face.


Good point.  This was one of the more credible incidents that GH has 'captured'.  From what I recall though didn't Jason say that Frank could not bring himself, because of theis experience, to work for GH any longer?  If this was filmed in 2004, why would Frank's resume list that he was audio supervisor for GH from 2004-2006?  Anyone else recall that?

7:12 pm
March 14, 2009


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2957

20 lbs…but we have it on good authority that ghosts are only good up to about 10 lbs. :)

I, too, an NOT into practical jokes. I wonder if that's a common trait among skeptical people?

Maybe not in the "here and now", but wait until I "come back" and some woman with an English accent asks that I throw something at her!

Legal: The content of this post is copyrighted and is intended exclusively for use on skepticalviewer.com It may not be copied, distributed, or redisplayed on any other site without the express written consent of the author.

8:25 am
March 16, 2009


Oubliette

Igloo in NJ

Lead Investigator

posts 574

Hannah said:

BarkingZouave said:

Just wanted to add my two cents: I worked as an audio recordist in the film industry (I'm retired now)- and I just want to point out that those bags with the recorders in them are HEAVY. I've never actually weighed my kit, but I reckon it probably weighed around 20 lbs. I used to use a bit of sheepskin to protect my shoulder whilst wearing the bag because of the weight. It would take quite a bit of force, even if Frank himself jerked the bag to make it fly up like that and whack himself in the face.


Good point.  This was one of the more credible incidents that GH has 'captured'.  From what I recall though didn't Jason say that Frank could not bring himself, because of theis experience, to work for GH any longer?  If this was filmed in 2004, why would Frank's resume list that he was audio supervisor for GH from 2004-2006?  Anyone else recall that?


Good catch, Hannah!  Maybe after that he worked back in the control room or something ;)

There's plenty of BS put out by GH.  Like when Kris W. put on her MySpace blog that Jay and Grant were under "people she wanted to meet". That sentence lasted about 2 days before it was deleted.  Hard to believe it when she was supposed to be another long time friend of TAPS.  Her explanation for those who dared to ask was that she was joking.  Yeah, right.

I'm trying to find the site where a skeptic debunked the supposed "hot spot" on Frank's face, but I forgot to bookmark it.  I'll keep looking.

If 50 million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
Anatole France

4:53 pm
March 16, 2009


blinddog

Special Agent Zombie Elimination Agency

Moderator

posts 857

Maybe, someone just stepped on the boom mic cord. Dunno.

Double tap to the head. Don't become Undead.

9:44 pm
March 16, 2009


Stephen

San Jose, CA

Admin

posts 589

For me, the incident stays in the "interesting, but not evidence" category for one reason: Brian's camera doesn't show us anything above Frank's bag until he gets bopped.  Brian shows some impressive reflexes and pans up as the bag rises, but we don't actually see what did, or didn't, start the bag moving– the bag is at the top of the frame. Since we don't actually know what was or wasn't in the bag, we can only guess how much force it took to start and stop its motion. (Although I'm impressed with some of the conjectures in this thread.)

If Brian had happened to have his camera right on Frank's upper body as the bag started moving, and clearly showed the bag start moving without any external influence, that would be impressive (though not necessarily conclusive.)

I consider Frank innocent until proven guilty. But I don't consider the footage to be compelling evidence of the paranormal.

Stephen the Friendly Skeptic

12:06 am
March 17, 2009


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

After Frank hit the deck in the Armory, I remember a scene with Jason looking at the video in his kitchen.  He played the piece a few times, "wondering" what to make of it.  Really, Jason?  Then lets take a look:

What we see on tape:

Frank's bag moves upwards, connects with his face, he crumples to the ground.  The FLIR picks up an "irritation" on Frank's face.  Frank is visibly "shaken" and remains on the ground for some time.

What we do not know:

1) The Bag: We do not know what the bag contained or its weight.  There was no examination of the bag or the strap.  Without this, there is no way to calculate the force at which Frank was struck, if he was "struck" at all.

2) Frank's Equipment: There was no examination of the equipment that Frank was carrying.

3) Frank's Clothes: There was no examination of Frank's clothes for wire or string or anything that the bag may have been connected to or snagged on.

4) Frank's Face: We are shown Frank's face to have some sort of inflammation, presumably from being struck.  We are never shown some sort of baseline to compare it to.  What does an out of shape man's face look like, in the dark, laying down, and shot with FLIR? 

5) Frank's Face (Part II): We know nothing of Frank's health.  Could the inflammation had been caused by high blood pressure and the fact that he was laying down?  Knowing any sort of medical condition or drugs used could possibly rule this out.

6) Frank: We know nothing of Frank.  He was involved in an extrordinary circumstance.  His character must come into question if he is to believed.  (For instance, a criminal's testimony is not given much weight in a court of law.)

Points 1, 2 and 3 could have been addressed at the scene and they were not.  Points 4,5 and 6 could have been addressed afterwards and never have been.  The word "investigation" doesn't mean walking around and filming junk in the dark.  It means that you are performing a detailed and careful examination of the environment.  The word "evidence" doesn't mean "Hey, me and G caught somethin' pretty weird on tape."  It means something that furnishes proof.

Do I believe that this particular investigation provided evidence of the paranormal?  Um…no.

What did I come away from the show with?  That their investigatory skills are as dismal as dismal can be…  

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

10:37 am
March 17, 2009


CrowTRobot

Investigator

posts 228

Revenant,

While I don't necessarily disagree with you, I do think a couple of your issues were addressed.

Points 4, 5: One of the clients/officers was, if not a doctor, at least (I think) trained in medicine and he seemed pretty convinced that Frank's inflammation was real.

Point 6: True, we know nothing of Frank; but to me, and apparently the officer that looked at him, Frank was truly shaken.

Points 1, 2: I think we debated that here, and it seemed that most agreed that a cameraman would not risk expensive equipment to fake an incident. So while it is certainly possible that Frank's bag was stuffed with a pillow, I think most agreed that something legit happened to Frank based on his reaction.

But most doubt it was paranormal.

I….I'm thinking.

3:56 pm
March 17, 2009


Hannah

Texas

Lead Investigator

posts 361

Would also have been helpful to have ascertained the location of the other members of the filming crew. 

I did find it interesting that Frank said his impression was that "it" came up through the floor.  

Everyone seemed geniunely startled when it happened, and the Ghost Hunter folks are not accomplished actors.   I do not think planned.  As discussed in a lot of different posts, the planned stunts are clumsy, and the reactions not natural.

Frank, I believe, really thought something out of the ordinary happened to him. 

4:43 pm
March 17, 2009


Wallydraigle

Ohio

Investigator

posts 114

blinddog50 said:

Maybe, someone just stepped on the boom mic cord. Dunno.


That actually makes a lot of sense, and is what I think probably happened.  In at least one of the videos you can see what appears to be the cord flying up and back as if it became snagged or stepped on, and was forcibly disconnected at a splice.  If the boom was hooked on his strap, or if he had it run through so that the weight of the bag would help position it more securely on his shoulder, when the slack was taken up the bag would fly upward as a matter of consequence.  There's only one catch.  Would there even be a cord for someone to step on?  I'd assume the cables would go to the equipment in his bag, and would be more or less self-contained.  Although it's possible he just had more slack hanging out than he though and someone caught it with their foot.

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