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9:45 am
December 11, 2008


Stephen

Moderator

San Jose, CA

posts 509

Great catch, LMC! Notice also that this happens while Jason's back is turned.

That's not his watch, by the way. His watch is on his left hand. This is the leather strap on his right.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with Patrick as well. I don't think Grant was preparing to knock, then pulled back when he heard the "response". Watch Grant's hand closely. He doesn't have his hand and arm parallel to the wall, like he was winding up about to knock. If he knocked right then, his knuckles would hit empty air.

I'm not sure that it's exactly our Yvette moaning moment, but it's close, and a worthy addition to the list.

10:25 am
December 11, 2008


Leslie

Investigator

posts 112

I was looking at this video again, a little more closely, and I was wrong as Stephen said. It is not his watch. If it's just a leather strap, then there is nothing hard enough on it to hit the molding and make that noise with. The only other thing to make that kind of noise that I can think of would be his elbow. But now, I'm not sure that's what happend.

Still very interesting.

10:35 am
December 11, 2008


Leslie

Investigator

posts 112

And, I forgot to add, I here the exact same sound prior to this at .22 sec in. Grant even comments on this sound.

10:45 am
December 11, 2008


SkepticalRader

Investigator

California

posts 38

I'm siding with Patrick on this one. Grant is getting ready to knock again, but comes short of the wall. He does not make contact with the wall to make this sound. His arm doesn't move during the sound. He could not pull that off. In my humble opinion, this is NOT the smoking gun that everyone's looking for. Grant is innocent on this one.

10:50 am
December 11, 2008


LMC

Guest

Listen carefully just before Grant does the 5 taps at 00:37. There is a sound that's very similar to the ghost knock, just about the time Grant's elbow reaches the moulding. It may just be coincidental noise, but my first impression is that it's his bumping the moulding with his arm/elbow. It's very similar in sound but quieter than the ghost knock. But I don't have headphones with me, so I can't listen really carefully.

11:06 am
December 11, 2008


Stephen

Moderator

San Jose, CA

posts 509

SkepticalRader, have to disagree. I've frame-by-framed the video. Grant's arm moves forward until the exact frame of the knock, then moves backward.

I don't think that the leather strap invalidates the theory, Leslie. It's a fairly soft tap, not a full-on knock, and we don't know what kind of leather it is. (Why does he wear that thing, anyway? RSI?)

As we've seen, though, people with working eyes and brains (on both sides!) can disagree on this one.

11:19 am
December 11, 2008


Patrick

Investigator

posts 42

Oubliette said:

With all due respect, Jason turns around immediately and looks right at the window.  I have to agree with LMC; his watch hits the woodwork and makes a small tap.  Why would he want to hit it again so soon after the first few knocks?  He would have waited for a reply.  He raises his arm twice in rapid succession.  To me it is very, very suspect.


I can't tell if he is looking at the window or at Grant, which he frequently does when they hear things.  They never look in the direction of the sound, they  immediately look at one another and say "did you hear that?".  So Jason looking over at the window could just as easily been him looking at Grant.

And, Oubliette, I never made the connection on the origin of your name until re-watching the last part of Leap Castle ep last night.  :)

11:22 am
December 11, 2008


SkepticalRader

Investigator

California

posts 38

Stephen, I respect your point of view, but I stand by mine. It's clear he knew he was on camera. His arm was already up there since he had just knocked. The natural reaction to the situation if you felt you had been caught would be to pull your arm away. He doesn't do that. His arm isn't moving in a knocking motion at that momemt. And since the knock sounds different, if you were inclined to say there was a trick being pulled, it would be more logical to say that someone was knocking from the other side.

11:24 am
December 11, 2008


Queen of the Nerds

Investigator

Orange County, CA

posts 105

 I have 2 leather cuffs similar to the ones that Grant wears. One has a buckle and the other has snaps. It has to have some closure on the back and I'm pretty sure that whichever one he has would make a noise if it was tapped against the wall.

Stephen, I wear them just because I am as cool as Grant! No medical reason, just trying to relive my punk days.  Wink

12:41 pm
December 11, 2008


Oubliette

Lead Investigator

Land of the Jersey Devil

posts 527

Stephen said:

SkepticalRader, have to disagree. I've frame-by-framed the video. Grant's arm moves forward until the exact frame of the knock, then moves backward.

I don't think that the leather strap invalidates the theory, Leslie. It's a fairly soft tap, not a full-on knock, and we don't know what kind of leather it is. (Why does he wear that thing, anyway? RSI?)

As we've seen, though, people with working eyes and brains (on both sides!) can disagree on this one.


Totally agree.  Doesn't matter if it was a watch or strap, the tap is quite soft (and yes, I too have been wondering about that strap, but he probably is just wearing it because it's cool looking).

There was a slight tap before this, but neither of the two remarked on it. 

Just as an FYI, we can't see Grant's legs either.

What we do know is during the live show Grant took many, many, chances.  I believe that in this case, he thought the camera was still on Jason, not on him. 

In my mind, this is a smoking gun, or arm.  I respect others who give it the benefit of the doubt, but to me he is definitely tapping softly.  In fact, a harder tap would have indicated all too well its origin.

Patrick–yup, that's why I picked my name here.  Although this was not the first time I saw the oubliette (it was actually on a Scariest Places on Earth episode years ago), I was intrigued by it when GH went there and thought it was interesting (the name; not the hole).  It is also French for "abandoned one" or something like that.  Maybe I should ask Grant ;)


2:20 pm
December 11, 2008


Wes

Investigator

Spaulding Inn, Room 38

posts 142

FYI — What Grant wears looks like what are called magician's cuffs (also called a coin cuff) that, as the name implies, magicians wear to conceal small items. I'm not claiming that Grant's wearing magician's cuffs, they could just be awesome ghost huntin' wristbands, I'm just sayin' …

9:22 pm
December 11, 2008


SkepticalRader

Investigator

California

posts 38

I've already said my "two bits" on this subject. What a laugh that J & G are using the "shave and a haircut" knocks while trying to summon ghosts. I guess it makes sense though, after all, older ghosts may get confused if they use something more contemporary, like "Knock three times on the ceiling if you're a ghost, twice on the pipes if you're plumbers."

9:35 am
December 12, 2008


bullerspoke

Investigator

Sweden

posts 101

I am certain the "cuffs" Grant is wearing is something "new agey" that is supposed to protect him from evil entities or alike. Or keep his energy "balanced or something (maybe he doesn't like green olives :) ).

I sure hope he does not wear it for fashion, because well, it's not pretty. Might look good on someone else as part of another clothes-style, but on him it only looks well, off.


10:20 am
December 12, 2008


Oubliette

Lead Investigator

Land of the Jersey Devil

posts 527

SkepticalRader said:

I've already said my "two bits" on this subject. What a laugh that J & G are using the "shave and a haircut" knocks while trying to summon ghosts. I guess it makes sense though, after all, older ghosts may get confused if they use something more contemporary, like "Knock three times on the ceiling if you're a ghost, twice on the pipes if you're plumbers."


Yes, I'm thinking "so it has deteriorated down to THIS?" 

Ridiculous.

I like the wrist band ;)  But a good point was made that it could also be a magician's band as well, but we will never know.


7:47 pm
December 14, 2008


DrF

Investigator in Training

DrF

posts 9

Paul Anthony said:

I under stand what your saying and I accept it, I just don’t agree with most of it. LOL
Let’s take a different approach looking at the moving lamp. You said your not 100% completely sure Grant moved the lamp. I will use something you can relate to, Magic. 
 .
I man walks on stage, and say’s he will disappear into thin air. He looks like a magician but doesn’t mention it. He walks over to a glass cylinder   on stage, he opens the door a steps in the cylinder. A curtain covers the cylinder and when it rises it appears empty. 

He really did disappear, but did he disappear into thin air. He said he would, so why shouldn’t we believe him. Because he did not demonstrate that he disappeared into thin air, so you would be justified in feeling as if he may have done so by other means. But he did disappear, and for all you know it could have been into thin air. For you to disbelieve him just because you feel like it would be unjustified. But for you to disbelieve him because he has not shown you that the thin air hypotheses is the only likely scenario, is completely justified.

 It’s fair to say most people know disappearing into thin air is a violation of the known laws of physics. This is exactly why if someone claims they can do it, we would require irrefutable evidence to be provided before we believed them.  . If they gave you a demonstration where they seemed to disappear, but there were plausible alternate explanations rather than "They really did disappear into thin air", then we are justified in not being convinced by their demonstration.

If I saw the demonstration   described but was unaware of a trapdoor, I'd still consider the evidence to be insufficient to overcome the MOUNTAIN of evidence that it would be impossible (not just improbable) for a person to vanish into thin air. ; the details of the trick are not important, only the possibility that it could have been a trick Evidence in its broadest sense, refers to anything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth.

Who moved the lamp?


 

Well…I trust that you can speak from experience, having personally witnessed a man on stage disappearing.  But even in your own illustration, it isn't "thin air"- its a large tube.  My point is that you're comparing apples to oranges.  Let me see if I can illustrate-

   As a young magician in college I met a fellow who claimed that he could move things with the power of his mind (He claimed he was a Rosicrucian).  We were sitting on the carpet during a party and I asked him if he would demonstrate.  Pause- he is making the claim.  Not me.  But if I said that there is no possibility, anytime, anywhere, then I would most certainly not be a skeptic.  I would be omniscient.  If I said, there might be the possibility but the proof is on the person making the claim. This is skeptical open-minded ness.  He hemmed and hawed, but eventually said he's "working on it." 

Then I claimed I could do it. He took some matches from his match book, piled them on the carpet, covered them with a clear ashtray and I  never touched the matches.  Yet the moved as could be clearly seen through the glass.  he was astonished.  I won't tip the method but even though I used natural means, it does not mean that I've explored ALL the means, everywhere, from Tibet to Tuscon. 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree at this point.  I think much of the presuppositions of modernistic science are too presumptive and  can't measure all there is.  In my opinion, being open-minded is to consider that there might be new things in new ways.


7:54 pm
December 14, 2008


DrF

Investigator in Training

DrF

posts 9

I watched the "tapping" video several times- around 40 seconds his right arm moves up to the window sill, but it is difficult to tell if the sound is coming from the wrist band or his fingers.  One could simply flick the middle finger and make the tap.

4:02 pm
December 15, 2008


dr_peter_venkman

Investigator

Rochester, NY

posts 99

DrF said:

I watched the "tapping" video several times- around 40 seconds his right arm moves up to the window sill, but it is difficult to tell if the sound is coming from the wrist band or his fingers.  One could simply flick the middle finger and make the tap.


It appears that he almost completed the sequence himself out of habit.

1:36 pm
December 17, 2008


Sovolis

Investigator in Training

Minnesota USA

posts 23

Hi there.  New to the sight.  Just found it last night by way of FormerGHFans YT posts.  I have been a long time fan of GH, but for about the last year and a half or so I haven't watched the series as religiously as I previously did.  I have attributed this recent lack of interest to how much sloppier GH seems to be.  To me they seem a little too quick to declare haunted, too slow to debunk, and/or providing gimicks for the intention of getting ratings.

There was an incident that I want to bring up that I haven't seen a lot of discussion about.  I can't remember the season or episode, but they are investigating a Hotel or Cruise Ship.  It's the episode in which Steve finds a prank that "someone else" played on the GH cast and crew.  For the prank; someone snuck into a room with a portable mini-DVR camera in it.  They then went behind the bed and pulled the sheets down.  After a little pause the sheets moved again.  In this particular case no one was in the bed and no one was supposed to be in the room.  While Steve reviewed the tape he noticed that the top sheet moves slightly during the pause between events.  This lead him to conclude that someone had paused the camera for a period of time(perhaps to position themselves better and not having to worry about being caught on tape).  This was declared by TAPS themselves to have been a fraud. 

Originally I dismissed this.  Infact, I wrongly used it as circumstantial evidence that TAPs was on the "Up and UP."  After all, they told us about it when it was obviously a hoax.  However, I probably should have put more thought into the situation.  One thing that(in hind sight) doesn't add up is that J&G blamed it on a nameless/faceless prankster not associated with GH.  As I mentioned earlier, this was filmed in a Hotel or on a Cruise Ship.  I find it very unlikely that this act would have been perpitrated by someone not associated with GH.  I understand it is a public place, however it is not only an investigation sight but also a TV filming sight.  It is in the investigators best interest to keep possable contamination out of thier data and in the film crews best interest to protect studio assests by keeping the area clear of unauthorized individuals.  Furthermore, while possable; I find it unlikely that someone unassociated with GH would know which room, that it is a GH investigation, and how to defraud the camera without at least a little foreknowledge and planning.  In hind sight I think it must be assumed that the prankster was associated with GH.  This is the most probable explanation.

I don't think this should be on the Grant List, but I do think it falls into Tier 3.  It was shown by GH to be a hoax, and I think every cast and crew member are on the list of suspects before any unknown prankster. 

2:41 pm
December 17, 2008


bullerspoke

Investigator

Sweden

posts 101

That was from the Queen Mary, who's management adamantly claim the boat to be "very" haunted and have had numerous investigate groups (and tv shows) onboard. In fact, much of their business is based around that.


However, one correction, it was Tango who spotted the hoaxing, the pause and move routine. He was very new in the team then, may even have been his first full investigation. Hence the keen eyes, the question that some people ask, is f he could or would catch something like that again. Subtext: He was green and keen but now is in on "it". Or just getting sloppy like the rest of the team. I don't know, it was rather poorly executed and I have no problem believing the management of the Queen Mary trying to hoax TAPS, rather than TAPS hoaxing us.

So the debunking was thanks to Tango, not Steve, however, I believe they would have caught it in the analysis anyways, but Tango's keen eyes on such a small screen when everyone else was hailing it as paranormal is something he should be proud of. 

And furthermost, nothing indicates Grant (or TAPS really) specifically in this incident, anyone could have hoaxed it. My guess is the management of the Queen Mary.

Addendum: The hoax was perpetrated by someone entering the room via side door and a tight junction (you couldn't enter through the main door without being seen on-camera) something probably not everyone knew existed, but I'm convinced the management did. Still TAPS might have done it and been caught by an overly eager Tango, but my bet is the management, the circumstantial evidence point to that and they had motif. I'm not sure GH would risk it, but I am sure the management on Queen Mary would. The moving of bedsheets in that room is one of their best known hauntings and to put that "haunting" on tape and then get that tape "validated" by TAPS would be damn good PR and a moneymaker for sure. The opportunity makes the thief…

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