SkepticalRader said:

I have been a Ghost Hunters fan from day one and have found questionable, from the beginning, some of the evidence of paranormal events. I always gave Jason and Grant the benefit of the doubt and suspected that they were the recipients of practical jokes by others. After all, they ARE likable fellows and they did seem genuinely sincere. We want to believe them. But recent happenings have really put J & G in the wrong spotlight. Every paranormal event happens to J & G and every one of those events CAN be explained if you first make the assumption that they are faked. They no longer set out to debunk. Every place they visit is haunted. Now we can hear disembodied voices with the naked ear and everything happens in multiples, not as stand alone events. Don’t even get me started on the K2 meters. Watching the footage of the jacket pull from the live Halloween event is very painful to watch. Grant’s stilted movements and forced conversation; Jason’s apparent disinterest in the goings on. These two have a lot to explain if they care about their credibility. Or is it too late?

Your post is excellent and a good recap of the history of their show.  Like you, I watched from Day 1.  Where they lost me was the infamous Manson episode.  And no, not the FLIR mess, but the appearance of Chris Fleming.  IMO, he is the poor man's version of Derek Acorah.  Watching his "channelings" on Dead Famous has provided myself and my husband with hours of comedic relief.

To take this man seriously is just not possible.  And if we are known by the company we keep–well, I would pass on being on the same investigation as him.  Maybe GH was forced to; maybe TAPS wouldn't have done it given a choice (if you know what I'm getting at).

You have brought up a good point.  Can they reclaim any credibility?  Can they lure fans back who were faithful up until the Live Show?  What can they do, if anything, to get back to the Season 1 group that seemed so sincere?

Might want to make that a new topic in this forum.  I find it interesting, though at this point, it's just one of those things in life that can't be undone.

When I first started watching the show I was skeptical.  What started to bother me was the "teasers" that the producer put into the segments.  An example of this is when one of the investigators is startled and there is a cutaway to commercial.  The show returns and you discover that the investigator jumped at a spider.  These are cheap carny tricks to keep the "mark" coming back. 

That being said Alison Smith of "SAPS" noted:

"The public’s trust was gained through the number of “true hauntings” TAPS uncovered. The percentage was shockingly small considering more popularity could be attained with more hauntings. In the first season, only 25% of all investigated locations were deemed “haunted”. The numbers went up, however, in the second season when 51.22% of the locations were haunted."

One might attribute this to several factors:

• Sci-Fi (and the show producers) may have pressured TAPS for more visually noteworthy episodes.  This can only be speculation.
• TAPS simply got better at what they do.
• TAPS turned up the number of incidents through "fraud."  Again- speculation and inherently unprovable.
• TAPS chose places that seemed to be more likely to manifest phenomena than other locations.
• TAPS changed their personnel (got rid of the demonologists, Bryan, etc) and got better results.
• TAPS introduced better equipment (Though I have strong reservations about some of the 'equipment').

The problem I have with Smith's statistics is that she draws a straight line from the increase of 52% to "fraud."  One can just as well draw a straight line from her article to being a publicity hound.  I'm not saying she is… my point is there is no justifiable cause and effect here.  There is no evidence between point 1 that she makes in the first season of 25% and 52% in the second season.

Now back to the Grant list.  I think it fair to assume that one cannot make assumptions that Grant is automatically guilty of creating phenomena.  This simply wouldn't be fair.  Each case must be determined according to its own merits and flaws. 

The Plantation lamp-  I saw some debunking video of this and I could not for the life of me see what the claimant was trying to prove.  He noted that Grant sat by the lamp and pulled it.  That is not in the video.

The bedcover pull- this one is inherently unprovable as fraud or genuine because a) Grant was the only one in the room and b) There isn't enough visual information available.  We have to rely on what Grant says.  He seems to be startled by it.

The picture- Grant was not in the room… or at least on camera.

The faces- on several shows Grant claimed to see a face.  But this was not on camera.  Grant DID NOT put them forth as evidence (to my knowledge) but simply an experience.

The Lighthouse chair- Grant WAS in the chair previously.  Some debunkers claim someone used a thread to pull the chair.  But again, there is no cause and effect logically here.  The fact that a chair may be moved by a thread (it can) does not necessarily mean that the chair did not move by some paranormal means (or other normal means for that matter).  This type of thinking is an inherent weakness among the debunkers who automatically assume if they can reproduce the phenomena that it must not, then, by definition, be paranormal.  The reality is that it doesn't argue either way, for or against paranormal phenomena.  It simply means you can move a chair with a thread.  It does mean Grant did…or didn't.

The Hanger incident- I did see a computer mockup of the room on line.  Personally, I don't think there is enough information visually to place Grant's hand on the hanger.

The Collar- there are some strong analyses floating around out here that place Grant's activity in question.  One must ask, is there a strong reason to suspect that his right hand is the cause of the collar being pulled down (and not out)?  We have three specific instances where it is suspicious and one inadvertant occasion (near a cutaway).  One must also implicate Jason to some degree if we go this route because he looked inside the collar and "found nothing."

The "You don't belong here"- do be honest, I don't think there are many of us who are constantly aware of every word that trips from our lips.  Could this simply be an honest mistake where Grant recorded himself saying those words and playing them back at some point?

To my mind, if one is going to be a true skeptic, one has to be honest enough to go where the evidence leads you all the while being cognizant of one's own presuppositions. 

One of the things that bothers me most about the show, lastly, is both Jay and Grant seem to have become rather quick in their "debunking" and do not take the time to do a better job at it.  But in their favor, my guess would be that they are working under strong time constraints by the producers to get a show in the can and to spend more time debunking would cause costs just to soar over budget.

My .02

DrF

DrF said:

The Lighthouse chair- Grant WAS in the chair previously.  Some debunkers claim someone used a thread to pull the chair.  But again, there is no cause and effect logically here.  The fact that a chair may be moved by a thread (it can) does not necessarily mean that the chair did not move by some paranormal means (or other normal means for that matter).  This type of thinking is an inherent weakness among the debunkers who automatically assume if they can reproduce the phenomena that it must not, then, by definition, be paranormal.  The reality is that it doesn't argue either way, for or against paranormal phenomena.  It simply means you can move a chair with a thread.  It does mean Grant did…or didn't.

DR. F-enjoyed reading your opinions. 

About the moving chair at Race Rock, I suggest you take a look at this debunking of the incident, complete with a figure on the stairs and the possibility that using string is nothing new.  It just might make you go Hmmm….on that one.  It is not someone recreating the incident, but determined from the actual video.

Darkrealm Labs: The Race Rock Lighthouse

Admin: Edited link (and changed its name to work around) –Stephen

EVIL ANDY said:

Anyone know of a YT vid that attempts to debunk the RR chair? Hard for me to figure that one out

Do you mean the link that I gave?  It's really simple if you look towards the bottom of the page.  There is a pic of the stairwell with a piece of cloth or a tarp hanging loose.   After Grant leaves, the shape of this material changes and becomes larger, like someone has pulled it across the entire stairwell to hide behind it.  When the chair moves, so does this piece of material.  Each time the chair is jerked, there is movement behind the material.

It's easiest to see by watching the light at the top.  You can see it being somewhat blocked by the movement of someone on the stairwell with each tug.

The other footage shows what appears to be the wire or string that moved the chair.  It is pulled; then the chair moves.  This cannot be seen in any subsequent (re-done) videos.  Only those lucky enough to have taped the original show will be able to make the catch. So…creative editing was IMO being done even in these early shows.

To me this is proof positive of a hoax.  The only question is: who did it?

I've always thought it strange that Jason goes fishing during that investigation–what a ridiculous thing to do.  And where there's a fishing pole, there is fishing line…

I've done a quick search on YT but haven't found this yet, if indeed it was ever uploaded there.

Sorry Oubliette, guess I overlooked it, thanks for that

But ya can see the way the blankets all point to one point, as if something is attached

I REALLY appreciate the comments above.  My objective was to "Grant" Grant (!) the benefit of the doubt.  I stand corrected on some of these because I was writing from memory of viewing some of the episodes, such as the picture. 

One of my points though I think is valid- the reproduction of a phenomena doesn't necessarily argue for the genuineness of it being faked.  BUT it does raise the doubt factor.

This raises anothe issue- and probably would fit better somewhere else on the forum.  What we see on Ghost Hunters and with investigations in general is the investigation with two sets of presuppositions.  One is from a modernist viewpoint.  In short, modernism holds that if we have the time and technology, we can come to know "truth" (whatever that is) 100%.  So in this vein instruments like the K2 meter, temperature gauges, video cameras, lights, etc are used to "objectively" measure experience.  The second presupposition is from the perspective of postmodernism which holds that knowledge can never be absolute because everyone brings their own experiences to the table, and all are valid (to a greater or lesser degree).  So here we find experiences used as investigative techniques.

I must say that I've not participated in Ghost Hunting, but I have been in on "debunking (phoney) psychics".  But it seems to me that that the world of paranormal investigations as applied to ghosts and hauntings is at cross purposes with much of our modernist presuppositions and technology.  Whether or not a K2 meter (for example) can detect a supernatural presence is irrelevant.  It is only serving to document (!) one's experience.  I think it is important to hone our observational skills to serve us better in this field.  This is where open-minded magicians can help.  I'm on the Society of American Magicians committee for investigation of the occult and I've seen some remarkable observational skills demonstrated by many (both here and on other sites). 

Bottom line: I still enjoy Ghost Hunters though it would seem that at least one of the team (Grant) has raised our experiential observations past the level of reasonable doubt.

Cute Lil Andy said:

Oubliette > I can't find/open that Race Rock chair link, help please?

Andy,

The !104 was missing on Oubliette's link. This should work.

Darkrealm Labs: Race Rock Lighthouse

Regards

Anthon

Admin: Fixed link. –S

Had to be away from my computer for a while; sorry for any problems with the link.  I was hoping it would work since it was so long.  If not, then going through the main site:

http://paranormal.darkrealmlabs.com

On the left,  click on Ghost Hunters, next page, click on Investigations.  Up pops a list of episodes, among which is Race Rock and a "yes".  Click on the "yes" for the page with the debunking.

What a shame, and so early in their show, too.  Who can we trust????