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11:45 am
January 11, 2009


T.A.Sharps

Iowa

Investigator

posts 60

I was wondering about this, so I thought I would start the discussion here.

How can we debunk their flashlight trick?  Where they unscrew the back of the flashlight so it just barely touches the contact, so it is really easy for a ghost to touch the back and turn it on.

The first time I saw them do this they mentioned how it was something they like to try a lot, this past season was the first time I saw them do it.

With everything else, it makes me think that something has to be up, not sure what though.

Anyone?

" Your reality Sir is lies and balderdash and I am delighted to say I have no grasp of it whatsoever!"

2:51 pm
January 11, 2009


Jacqui

Investigator in Training

posts 14

One very convincing explanation is given by Patrick Doyle in one of his Haunted Hoax videos. It's a 10-minute video so you have to wait a few minutes. (It's worth it–the whole video's interesting!) The explanation comes at about 7:30 into it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d129Fpr9QPo.

4:37 pm
January 11, 2009


Dedicated_Dad

Investigator

posts 64

Jacqui said:

One very convincing explanation is given by Patrick Doyle in one of his Haunted Hoax videos. It's a 10-minute video so you have to wait a few minutes. (It's worth it–the whole video's interesting!) The explanation comes at about 7:30 into it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d129Fpr9QPo.


Meh…

The simple fact of placing a warm (from hands) metal flashlight on a cold concreter floor will most likely contract enough to make it come on.

OR, just a little vibration…

No fishing line required…

DD

9:53 pm
January 11, 2009


Stephen

San Jose, CA

Admin

posts 589

I'm with DD on this one. When TAPS first did this trick at Wright-Patterson, I actually figured out what kind of flashlight it was (Inova X5, in case you're dying to know) and tested it. It wasn't constant, but every once in a while the flashlight– set up like they had in the show– would turn on, exactly as shown. It certainly would happen if you rigged it carefully, then hit the table next to it, or otherwise caused some strong vibration.

I actually wound up liking the flashlight quite a bit, and I carry it around in my backpack in case of power failure or impromptu ghost hunts (I guess).

Stephen the Friendly Skeptic

9:58 am
January 12, 2009


Sovolis

Minnesota USA

Investigator in Training

posts 23

This can be done very easily with photo shop and simple video editing software available for all computers.  This method also allows a person to make it appear that the light is responding to questions without relying on vibration or extraneous stimuli. 

How it works:

1. Turn the flashlight on and place on the ground.

2. Photograph the flashlight while it is on.

3. Turn the flashlight off without moving it.

4. Film a sequence with the flashlight off.

5. Photo shop the photo of the flashlight turned on so that a minimum amount of the surrounding area is present(some area is needed to properly line it up within the video).

6. Edit the photo into the frames you need to create the illusion.

With this method an individual can even walk through the frame and make it a more convincing hoax as long as they don't pass through the area that the photo will be edited into.  There is a video of this on YouTube.  If I remember, I will provide a link to it when I get home from work.  YouTube is blocked on my work computer.

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. ~Thomas Jefferson

10:20 pm
January 12, 2009


Sovolis

Minnesota USA

Investigator in Training

posts 23

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. ~Thomas Jefferson

4:59 am
January 13, 2009


dr_peter_venkman

Rochester, NY

Investigator

posts 99

Stephen said:

I'm with DD on this one. When TAPS first did this trick at Wright-Patterson, I actually figured out what kind of flashlight it was (Inova X5, in case you're dying to know) and tested it. It wasn't constant, but every once in a while the flashlight– set up like they had in the show– would turn on, exactly as shown. It certainly would happen if you rigged it carefully, then hit the table next to it, or otherwise caused some strong vibration.


I think I remember the first time I saw this flashlight trick. They placed in on the floor in a doorway. When the flashlight is rigged in that fashion, could a light breeze set it off? If so, this could explain the placement.

Hee hee hee! "Get her!" That was your whole plan, huh, "get her." Very scientific.

7:58 am
January 13, 2009


Sovolis

Minnesota USA

Investigator in Training

posts 23

If your intent is to hoax why rely on something as unpredictable as a light breeze?  If your going to hoax, you want results; if you want results, you make those results in the most reliable fashion.  I think the fishing line or digital editing methods are most likely to be the methods being used by GH.  These methods are going to guerantee they get the results they are looking for without having to rely on mother nature for help.

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. ~Thomas Jefferson

10:33 am
January 13, 2009


Stephen

San Jose, CA

Admin

posts 589

Because in this case I don't think they're particularly trying to do a hoax. Remember, when they first did the flashlight trick, Grant mentioned something about them having done this "many, many, many times before." Normally they don't get results, so it doesn't appear on the show.

We've got to be careful with the "it worked, so it must be a hoax" idea, seductive though it is. Yes, it would be fairly easy to make the flashlight light up with digital effects, but it would involve a coordinated effort between TAPS and Pilgrim. They could rig it up with string, but conditions aren't the same as other string tricks, since Grant doesn't have any kind of special access to the flashlight. Neither of these objections are proof that it didn't happen that way– more like explanations on why my mind isn't going in that direction.

The flashlight trick is one of those cases where I could see TAPS fooling themselves, and involves no photoshop or string to accomplish it.

Stephen the Friendly Skeptic

10:56 am
January 13, 2009


Queen of the Nerds

Orange County, CA

Investigator

posts 105

Stephen said:

We've got to be careful with the "it worked, so it must be a hoax" idea, seductive though it is. Yes, it would be fairly easy to make the flashlight light up with digital effects, but it would involve a coordinated effort between TAPS and Pilgrim. They could rig it up with string, but conditions aren't the same as other string tricks, since Grant doesn't have any kind of special access to the flashlight. Neither of these objections are proof that it didn't happen that way– more like explanations on why my mind isn't going in that direction.


 IMO, the flashlight is not a hoax. OTOH, I don't believe it is paranormal either. It looks like it was an experiment that went well a couple of times so they included it in the show. I think that it looks exactly like what it is…. the contacts barely touching so you get a flash instead of a steady light. If you time your questions right it may look like you are getting a response. Plus, with editing, it may look like a better response than it actually was. On the Live show, the flashlight sequence didn't work so well, if I remember correctly.
Photoshopping and string sounds like a lot of work for such a simple thing.

If you believe in telekinesis, raise my hands.

12:59 pm
January 13, 2009


Sovolis

Minnesota USA

Investigator in Training

posts 23

Stephen said:

Because in this case I don't think they're particularly trying to do a hoax.

I disagree and will explain further down.

Remember, when they first did the flashlight trick, Grant mentioned something about them having done this "many, many, many times before."

This is circumstantial and holds 0 relevance in regards to the outcome and evidence at hand.

Normally they don't get results, so it doesn't appear on the show.

My memory may be faulty, but it seems to me that it became much more common after the first time.  I seem to recall them getting results fairly frequently after the first time.  Furthermore, like above, it is circumstantial and holds 0 relevance in regards to the outcome and evidence at hand.

We've got to be careful with the "it worked, so it must be a hoax" idea, seductive though it is.

I disagree and don't understand this separation you try to make between yourself and a 'hardline' skeptic.  I draw my skepticism from an understanding and love of the scientific method.  For as long as I can remember I have loved science and in turn have become skeptical of any claim until presented evidence.  I am then skeptical of the evidence until it is properly analyzed(read:peer reviewed).  I believe most skeptics draw their skepticism from similar origins.  This idea that the 'hardline' skeptic is too close-minded is laughable.  If the skeptic is truly forming his opinions based on the evidence at hand it is impossible for his own bias to play a role in that opinion.  A very good example of this is in the creationism v. evolution debate.  Less than 1/10 of 1% of all scientists in the US(this % is smaller over seas) believes in creationism, yet we can safely assume, based on the 2000 census, that at least 65-70% or more of US scientists are religious.  Are these close-minded individuals?  No, they have just formed their opinion based upon the evidence at hand.  If the evidence supported creationism they would be creationists.

I see Ockham's Razor butchered to death on this site fairly frequently(I am guilty of this as well).  I think this lack of understanding of Ockham's Razor is a big contributor to this misunderstanding of 'hardline' skeptics.  When Ockham's Razor is applied to this situation it will only leave 2 possibilities from the options provided in this thread.  Digital Editing and Fishing Line.  To realize this we must understand what Ockham's Razor means.  Ockham's Razor does not say that the simplest explanation should be favored. It says that entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity (non sunt multiplicanda entia praeter necessitatem). In other words, new principles should not be invoked if existing principles already provide an explanation. If, however, the simpler explanation does not cover all the details, then additional "entities" are necessary.  An explanation tells why something is one way instead of an alternative way.  But the speculative examples of light breezes, vibration, etc. does not rule out any alternatives since no data or recreation using these methods has been provided.  Because of this, these examples add nothing to any argument.  Thus, these examples are an unnecessary entity and, by Ockham's Razor, should be eliminated.

Yes, it would be fairly easy to make the flashlight light up with digital effects, but it would involve a coordinated effort between TAPS and Pilgrim.

It wouldn't take as much coordination as you imply.  Furthermore, the level of coordination holds 0 relevance on the discussion at hand.  The complication of the situation does not eliminate it from consideration unless said complication makes it impossible.  I think it is safe to assume that, while complicated, it is not impossible.  In fact, because it has been shown to be possible; it(along with the fishing line) should be held in higher esteem than any other example until evidence of the speculated possabilities is presented.  We must hold any possibility with supporting evidence in a higher esteem than theories lacking supporting evidence.

They could rig it up with string, but conditions aren't the same as other string tricks, since Grant doesn't have any kind of special access to the flashlight.

I don't understand why you mention Grant here.  The question at hand isn't "Did Grant rig this?" and is in fact "Could TAPS have rigged this?"  Weather or not Grant has access has 0 relevence on the facts.  Grant isn't mentioned at all in this thread until you bring him up.

Neither of these objections are proof that it didn't happen that way– more like explanations on why my mind isn't going in that direction.

Nothing in this thread is proof that it happened one way or another, however, it is an exploration of what is most likely to be the case.  As I believe I have shown, Ockham's Razor only allows for 2 of the possibilities discussed in this thread until further evidence can be provided.

The flashlight trick is one of those cases where I could see TAPS fooling themselves, and involves no photoshop or string to accomplish it.

This is your personal opinion based on what you want the case to be, not what the evidence suggests.  I would also prefer this to be the case, but I wont allow myself to form my opinions based upon anything except the evidence.  Understand that I would be quick to change that opinion if the evidence supported something other than my opinion.  Until more evidence can be provided I will believe that we are being hoaxed concerning the flashlight.


Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. ~Thomas Jefferson

2:16 pm
January 13, 2009


Learjet

Australia

Lead Investigator

posts 1122

If Pilgrim and TAPS faked the flashlight effects during video editing, why bother to unscrew the tail cap to make it easier to turn on? Just an observation.

I'm afraid if Mr ghost wants to turn on my flashlight, he's going to have to do it through the full gap of the switch! I won't be making it easy for it to turn itself on thanks.

OD'd on EMF

3:07 pm
January 13, 2009


A Adams

Guest

This is not an attack on your comment Sovalis but a sincere comment. And I admit you are all way out of my league on this logic stuff but to me I feel that your argument based on "rules" of logic still does not mean that me, or a ghosthunter, a flashlight, a discussion thread, a film crew necessarily will or has to play by some logistician's "rule"? I just seems to me that the uncertainty of it all (none of us were there on the GH film set or afterwards in the editing room, etc) and so that would allow for any and every possibility. Especially when you factor in almost "limitless" special effects possilbilities that cannot completely be left out because we just don't know- none of us having been there. We work with what we have and what we don't have (firsthand account experience of the GH incidents in question) and so I see us (or rather our speculations) all on equal playing field. We can debate and dismiss those that don't make sense to each of us individually but we can't be expected to speculate or rather find the answers, based on the rules of some "rule" in this situation.  Applying logic rules (THERE ARE ONLY TWO POSSIBILITIES TO THE FLASHLIGHT INCIDENT, ETC) to third hand quarterbacking discussions of a filmed and manipulated show  is kinda of like applying the rules of physics to a magic show or action movie. Does that make any sense?

3:17 pm
January 13, 2009


Sovolis

Minnesota USA

Investigator in Training

posts 23

Learjet said:

If Pilgrim and TAPS faked the flashlight effects during video editing, why bother to unscrew the tail cap to make it easier to turn on? Just an observation.

I'm afraid if Mr ghost wants to turn on my flashlight, he's going to have to do it through the full gap of the switch! I won't be making it easy for it to turn itself on thanks.


If you will allow me to speculate a bit on Pilgrim's or TAPS intent; by appearing to make it as easy as possible for a paranormal entity to manipulate the flashlight, they may believe they are providing credibility to their illusion. 

However, this probably isn't the case.  Unscrewing the tail cap is a necessary component of the fishing line hoax, so it should add esteem to that scenario. 

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. ~Thomas Jefferson

4:31 pm
January 13, 2009


Sovolis

Minnesota USA

Investigator in Training

posts 23

A Adams said:

This is not an attack on your comment Sovalis but a sincere comment.

I didn't take it as such.  There are no personal attacks in your comment.

And I admit you are all way out of my league on this logic stuff but to me I feel that your argument based on "rules" of logic still does not mean that me, or a ghosthunter, a flashlight, a discussion thread, a film crew necessarily will or has to play by some logistician's "rule"?

I think you misunderstand the query.  We are not discussing some one's intent, but weather or not what we witnessed was paranormal.  Ockham's Razor isn't concerned with weather you adhere to the logic of Ockham's Razor or not; it will still apply.  Furthermore, we must use logic when analyzing any evidence brought forth.  Using logic is one of the only ways we can guerentee that we are on an equal footing when debating our points of view.

 I just seems to me that the uncertainty of it all (none of us were there on the GH film set or afterwards in the editing room, etc) and so that would allow for any and every possibility. Especially when you factor in almost "limitless" special effects possilbilities that cannot completely be left out because we just don't know- none of us having been there.

This is flawed logic.  Just because we weren't there doesn't mean we can't apply the scientific method and produce evidence one way or another.  This would apply to evolution and the big bang the same way.  None of us were around billions of years ago to witness either the big bang or evolution, but evidence of both remain.  Scientists have formulated theories and tested those theories to the conclusion that these are widely excepted in the scientific community.  We can apply these same principals to the flashlight situation.  We were presented something that appeared abnormal.  We were told it was paranormal.  We have formulated theories as to what we believe is going on.  Some of those theories have been tested.  All of those theories have been provided for peer review(these message boards).  We have made our conclusions based on the evidence.

We work with what we have and what we don't have (firsthand account experience of the GH incidents in question) and so I see us (or rather our speculations) all on equal playing field.

As long as logic and the scientific method are used then we are all on an equal playing field.

 We can debate and dismiss those that don't make sense to each of us individually but we can't be expected to speculate or rather find the answers, based on the rules of some "rule" in this situation. 

Ockham's Razor and other elements of logic are not rules that only apply to someone if the subscribe to them.  Logic forms the backbone of the scientific method.  They are interconnected; you can't have one without the other. 

Applying logic rules (THERE ARE ONLY TWO POSSIBILITIES TO THE FLASHLIGHT INCIDENT, ETC) to third hand quarterbacking discussions of a filmed and manipulated show  is kinda of like applying the rules of physics to a magic show or action movie. Does that make any sense?

First of all, I never said that there are only 2 possibilities to the flashlight incident.  I said that only 2 of the theories presented in this thread stand up against Ockham's Razor at this time.  The other theories in this thread maybe what is really going on, but if we applied Ockham's Razor at this time they would be disregarded because they don't rule out any alternatives.  The other 2 have been shown to be possible so they would be included as possibilities.  Ockham's Razor isn't a magical rule of logic that will give us answers.  It will only give us a list of options that are possible and a list of things that are not possible given the current evidence.  When additional evidence is presented these lists will change.  There are only 2 possibilities within this thread that have provided evidence, hence Ockham's Razor cuts everything else out.  As far as applying the laws of physics to a magic show or action movie; while we may get presented something different from the production, it all still has to adhere to the laws of physics. 


Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. ~Thomas Jefferson

5:08 pm
January 13, 2009


Learjet

Australia

Lead Investigator

posts 1122

The way I see there are 3 possibilities. 1) TAPS\\Pilgrim did it. 2) A ghost turned it on. 3) It turned on by itself.

When I first saw TAPS use this flashlight trick I was amazed. At that point in time I didn't realise they loosened the end cap. I thought ghost for sure. You see I collect flashlights. It's another one of my hobbies. With dozens of the things lying around I make sure they can't turn themselves on and flatten the batteries.

Then when I found out that they did the end cap adjustment I was very disappointed. The whole point of this excercise is for a ghost to do a difficult thing, something that would not normally happen on it's own. It is very rare for a good quality flashlight to turn itself on. I should know. In all the years I've had mine, I've never had it happen. However, when one monkeys around with the switch and endcap to the point just off threshold, that's literally asking for an incident.

I think in these cases the flashlight went off by itself. My theory is thermal contraction brought on by the cold.   Note how after they adjust the flashlight they put it on the floor. The floor is usually a couple of degrees cooler than at hand level, plus it would have been warmed by the hands. The cold contracts the cap, the switch makes contact and bingo we have light.

Just tried it with one of mine – took a bit of fiddling but it worked. Switched on by itself.

OD'd on EMF

5:33 pm
January 13, 2009


dr_peter_venkman

Rochester, NY

Investigator

posts 99

Sovolis said:

Remember, when they first did the flashlight trick, Grant mentioned something about them having done this "many, many, many times before."

This is circumstantial and holds 0 relevance in regards to the outcome and evidence at hand.

I disagree. Unless we completely dismiss information from TAPS, it is data that can be used to understand the evidence.

We've got to be careful with the "it worked, so it must be a hoax" idea, seductive though it is.

I see Ockham's Razor butchered to death on this site fairly frequently(I am guilty of this as well).  I think this lack of understanding of Ockham's Razor is a big contributor to this misunderstanding of 'hardline' skeptics.  When Ockham's Razor is applied to this situation it will only leave 2 possibilities from the options provided in this thread.  Digital Editing and Fishing Line.  To realize this we must understand what Ockham's Razor means.  Ockham's Razor does not say that the simplest explanation should be favored. It says that entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity (non sunt multiplicanda entia praeter necessitatem). In other words, new principles should not be invoked if existing principles already provide an explanation. If, however, the simpler explanation does not cover all the details, then additional "entities" are necessary.  An explanation tells why something is one way instead of an alternative way.  But the speculative examples of light breezes, vibration, etc. does not rule out any alternatives since no data or recreation using these methods has been provided.  Because of this, these examples add nothing to any argument.  Thus, these examples are an unnecessary entity and, by Ockham's Razor, should be eliminated.

The speculation of light breezes, vibrations, etc. is based on TAPS' admission of the modification of the flashlight's switch mechanism. A brief summary of Occam's Razor from Wikipedia:

The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory.

It seems to me that fishing line and digital editing both make more assumptions than taking TAPS admission of modification as fact and then assuming that a common, simple source of kinetic energy causes the flashlight to operate.

Yes, it would be fairly easy to make the flashlight light up with digital effects, but it would involve a coordinated effort between TAPS and Pilgrim.

It wouldn't take as much coordination as you imply.  Furthermore, the level of coordination holds 0 relevance on the discussion at hand.  The complication of the situation does not eliminate it from consideration unless said complication makes it impossible.  I think it is safe to assume that, while complicated, it is not impossible.  In fact, because it has been shown to be possible; it(along with the fishing line) should be held in higher esteem than any other example until evidence of the speculated possabilities is presented.  We must hold any possibility with supporting evidence in a higher esteem than theories lacking supporting evidence.

While complication does not eliminate, it does butt heads with the aforementioned principle: "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity"

Neither of these objections are proof that it didn't happen that way– more like explanations on why my mind isn't going in that direction.

Nothing in this thread is proof that it happened one way or another, however, it is an exploration of what is most likely to be the case.  As I believe I have shown, Ockham's Razor only allows for 2 of the possibilities discussed in this thread until further evidence can be provided.

I agree there is no proof. I'll have to dig through the forum to find out what model flashlight they use and rig it myself.

The flashlight trick is one of those cases where I could see TAPS fooling themselves, and involves no photoshop or string to accomplish it.

This is your personal opinion based on what you want the case to be, not what the evidence suggests.  I would also prefer this to be the case, but I wont allow myself to form my opinions based upon anything except the evidence.  Understand that I would be quick to change that opinion if the evidence supported something other than my opinion.  Until more evidence can be provided I will believe that we are being hoaxed concerning the flashlight.

I seems to me that we all agree that nothing paranormal is involved. We are simply disagreeing on the mechanism and possibly the intent.



Hee hee hee! "Get her!" That was your whole plan, huh, "get her." Very scientific.

7:57 pm
January 13, 2009


Sovolis

Minnesota USA

Investigator in Training

posts 23

dr_peter_venkman said:

Remember, when they first did the flashlight trick, Grant mentioned something about them having done this "many, many, many times before."

This is circumstantial and holds 0 relevance in regards to the outcome and evidence at hand.

I disagree. Unless we completely dismiss information from TAPS, it is data that can be used to understand the evidence.

We've got to be careful with the "it worked, so it must be a hoax" idea, seductive though it is.

I see Ockham's Razor butchered to death on this site fairly frequently(I am guilty of this as well).  I think this lack of understanding of Ockham's Razor is a big contributor to this misunderstanding of 'hardline' skeptics.  When Ockham's Razor is applied to this situation it will only leave 2 possibilities from the options provided in this thread.  Digital Editing and Fishing Line.  To realize this we must understand what Ockham's Razor means.  Ockham's Razor does not say that the simplest explanation should be favored. It says that entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity (non sunt multiplicanda entia praeter necessitatem). In other words, new principles should not be invoked if existing principles already provide an explanation. If, however, the simpler explanation does not cover all the details, then additional "entities" are necessary.  An explanation tells why something is one way instead of an alternative way.  But the speculative examples of light breezes, vibration, etc. does not rule out any alternatives since no data or recreation using these methods has been provided.  Because of this, these examples add nothing to any argument.  Thus, these examples are an unnecessary entity and, by Ockham's Razor, should be eliminated.

The speculation of light breezes, vibrations, etc. is based on TAPS' admission of the modification of the flashlight's switch mechanism. A brief summary of Occam's Razor from Wikipedia:

The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory.

It seems to me that fishing line and digital editing both make more assumptions than taking TAPS admission of modification as fact and then assuming that a common, simple source of kinetic energy causes the flashlight to operate.

Yes, it would be fairly easy to make the flashlight light up with digital effects, but it would involve a coordinated effort between TAPS and Pilgrim.

It wouldn't take as much coordination as you imply.  Furthermore, the level of coordination holds 0 relevance on the discussion at hand.  The complication of the situation does not eliminate it from consideration unless said complication makes it impossible.  I think it is safe to assume that, while complicated, it is not impossible.  In fact, because it has been shown to be possible; it(along with the fishing line) should be held in higher esteem than any other example until evidence of the speculated possabilities is presented.  We must hold any possibility with supporting evidence in a higher esteem than theories lacking supporting evidence.

While complication does not eliminate, it does butt heads with the aforementioned principle: "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity"

Neither of these objections are proof that it didn't happen that way– more like explanations on why my mind isn't going in that direction.

Nothing in this thread is proof that it happened one way or another, however, it is an exploration of what is most likely to be the case.  As I believe I have shown, Ockham's Razor only allows for 2 of the possibilities discussed in this thread until further evidence can be provided.

I agree there is no proof. I'll have to dig through the forum to find out what model flashlight they use and rig it myself.

The flashlight trick is one of those cases where I could see TAPS fooling themselves, and involves no photoshop or string to accomplish it.

This is your personal opinion based on what you want the case to be, not what the evidence suggests.  I would also prefer this to be the case, but I wont allow myself to form my opinions based upon anything except the evidence.  Understand that I would be quick to change that opinion if the evidence supported something other than my opinion.  Until more evidence can be provided I will believe that we are being hoaxed concerning the flashlight.

I seems to me that we all agree that nothing paranormal is involved. We are simply disagreeing on the mechanism and possibly the intent.



I disagree. Unless we completely dismiss information from TAPS, it is data that can be used to understand the evidence.

How is this relevant?  TAPS' statements are nothing more than hearsay.  Furthermore, we have no way of verifying their claims of past attempts or the results of said attempts.  Those facts make their statements irrelevent.

The speculation of light breezes, vibrations, etc. is based on TAPS' admission of the modification of the flashlight's switch mechanism. A brief summary of Occam's Razor from Wikipedia:

The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory.

It seems to me that fishing line and digital editing both make more assumptions than taking TAPS admission of modification as fact and then assuming that a common, simple source of kinetic energy causes the flashlight to operate.

First of all, the modification of the switch mechanism is not at question regarding these theories.  It is but a detail within the theories.  For some of the theories it is relevant, for one it is not.  The question posed is weather or not we witnessed a paranormal event or a mundane event.  Secondly, you are misinterpreting Ockham's Razor.  Because the fishing line and editing theories have provided verifiable evidence that can be used to predict future results; those theories are not making any assumptions about reality.  Furthermore, they explain the reality we witness while ruling out other explanations.  Taking TAPS admission of modification as fact is making the assumption that their admission is fact.  Ockham's Razor must disregard these statements.  Speculations about light breezes or vibration also makes assumptions while not ruling out other explanations.  We can speculate that a light breeze caused the phenomenon, but without evidence, the cause could be a multitude of other possibilities.  Ockham's Razor demands that these theories be disregarded until verifiable evidence can be provided.  The misinterpretation your making is a common one first proposed by a guy named Karl Popper.  That misinterpretation is: "the simplest answer is the most logical answer."  If this misinterpretation were correct it would cause Ockham's Razor to support creationism instead of evolution.  In fact Karl Popper is regarded by the scientific community as a religious pseudo-scientist.  His creationist motivations for this interpretation are well documented.

While complication does not eliminate, it does butt heads with the aforementioned principle: "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity"

This is the same misinterpretation I pointed out above. 

Let me clarify.  The assumptions are being made by the theories that, as of yet, have no evidence to support them.  While they are logical, they are only speculation so all they do is assume.  I will openly admit that I am sure the same results can be garnered by those theories, however, until evidence is presented they can only make assumptions about the reality of the situation.  When evidence is provided; opinions will have to be revised.

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. ~Thomas Jefferson

9:39 pm
January 13, 2009


Stephen

San Jose, CA

Admin

posts 589

Hi Sovolis–

(These comments refer to Sovolis' first post, #11.)

I *AM* a hardline skeptic, and proud of it. I have never said that hardline skeptics are too closed-minded, since I am one. Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else?

All I said was, "I don't think they're particularly trying to do a hoax." Not that they definitely weren't hoaxing. They've been caught hoaxing elsewhere. I have no vested interest in this not being a hoax, and if you could give me evidence that this was a hoax, I would love it.

I bought the flashlight. I did the experiment. I duplicated the effect. So, for me, existing principles provide an explanation just fine. The simplicity of the explanation– that these flashlights, properly prepared, will turn on by themselves– appeals to me. I've proven it by experiment, and hence have evidence that I find compelling and verifiable. In addition, the flashlight flickers on in precisely the manner depicted in the video– with an initial stutter, and staying on at about half intensity.

Your counter to this one is that you believe that flashlights have been turning on with more regularity after Wright-Patterson. That would indeed be interesting, but an impression isn't enough. Can you give me, at least, episode titles where this happened? Are you sure that this is an independent variable, or did they perhaps increase the frequency of flashlight experiments after Wright-Patterson?

Now let me explain my comments regarding coordination between TAPS and Pilgrim and Grant, since those comments probably didn't make any sense without context. For that I apologize– I was dashing off the previous comment as I was running for work.

Most of their more evident hoaxes, or at least the ones done with string, have been in areas where Grant had some special access. See "The Grant List" thread for details. That's what I meant by "conditions aren't the same as other string tricks." As I said, I was not advancing this as evidence. I was not using this fact to argue that it was not a hoax. I don't see why I need to do so, or why I would, since hoax hunting is one of the main points of this place, and certainly of my participation here.

So in the end I just don't see why the Ghost Hunters would bother to fake an effect that would happen anyway. I'm not basing this on theory or supposition, but on actual, tangible evidence. I've been there, done that, bought the flashlight. Could they have hoaxed it? Yes, and if you can provide me with evidence of that I'll be a happy man. Until then, I'll hang on to my opinion, as you may certainly do with yours.

Stephen the Friendly Skeptic

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