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1:38 pm March 30, 2010
| thetalkingmongoose
| | northish | |
| Investigator in Training | posts 18 |
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I’ve recently watched the first episode about the St Augustine Lighthouse multiple times, and I’m now really curious why I can't find serious attempts to explain how the “ghost” leaning over the stairs might have been filmed. On a rewatch of the episode, it seems clear that the film of the “ghost” comes from a stationary camera the night before Jason and Grant were supposedly chasing the thing up the stairwell, not the same night as they claim. While this doesn’t prove anything one way or the other, it does raise some questions about the believability.
Logisti has said the episode was "impressive" (in his 01/11/08 post about the second visit), and while I’d like to agree, I’m way too jaded not to question it. And yet I haven’t found any good explanations for how it might have been hoaxed. In that same post, a commenter suggested something about creating shadows that I can’t really grasp. I haven’t seen any other discussion. Whether it’s real or not, why isn’t it more argued about? Or have I missed something?
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3:41 pm March 31, 2010
| ginrog
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| Investigator in Training | posts 9 |
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I haven't seen this episode in quite a long time so I am going out on a limb here but didn't they set up a stationary camera that would shoot straight up the lighthouse? What makes you think it is the night before?
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4:39 pm March 31, 2010
| thetalkingmongoose
| | northish | |
| Investigator in Training | posts 18 |
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The stationary camera captures the thingy at 23:55 on 01/14/06. The FLIR Jason and Grant are using when they supposedly chase the thing up the stairs says it's 11:41 on 01/15/06. They've condensed two-night hunts into one before, and I expect that's what's happening here. If I were going to be charitable, I'd say they caught the ghost with the stationary camera on the 14th, to their surprise, and for extra color, decided to stage a chase the next night. I don't see any signs there is someone in that tower on the stationary camera film, unless the "ghost" is two Pilgrim crew members messing with us at the top of the stairs. I'd rather it be a ghost, but I have a bad feeling it isn't.
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7:37 pm March 31, 2010
| The Doctor
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| Lead Investigator | posts 488 |
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Just to illustrate how Techmangler Steve has a really good handle on these types of details, the DVR screen in the latest Absecon Lighthouse episode shows Jan 01, 1996
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1:51 pm April 2, 2010
| ginrog
| | ginrog | |
| Investigator in Training | posts 9 |
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Nice catch. I so rarely pay attention to the dates on things on the show. The Doctor brings up another good date point though and can the timestamps really ever be trusted to prove or disprove anything on this show? 1996 was a great year but at the same time it was 14 years ago…
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5:07 am April 3, 2010
| thetalkingmongoose
| | northish | |
| Investigator in Training | posts 18 |
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Certainly it's possible the stationary camera and the FLIR registered different dates by accident. What I find suspicious is that there is also no sign of visible activity in the stairwell in the stationary camera's view from the bottom except for the "ghost." According to the story line, Jason and Grant were supposedly chasing the thing upward, and they themselves set off the motion detector at the top while the "thing" did not. Maybe they were chasing something, but I don't see how the film presented as being from that point in time can really be from that point in time, whether the dates are accurate or not. What they're presenting as "proof" – they set the motion detector off – can't be seen on the film, or anything else they supposedly did, and they were peering over the stairwell a lot themselves. It looks like the tower is completely empty, other than whatever it is at the top. So if it's empty, with the strong implication that it might be a film from a different night – I dunno. The whole thing smells. Again, I wish it didn't. I'd like to be proved wrong.
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10:14 am April 6, 2010
| The Doctor
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| Lead Investigator | posts 488 |
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I'll have to dig it out and watch it when I get a chance, but would it make sense in the sequence of events if the FLIR was set incorrectly12 hours ahead while displaying in 12 hour mode – making it 23:41 ?
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1:45 pm April 6, 2010
| thetalkingmongoose
| | northish | |
| Investigator in Training | posts 18 |
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I think you'll see that the problem is less with the dates (although that’s what made me look more closely at the episode) than with what’s visible on film. According to the plotline, Jason and Grant set the FLIR camera up at the bottom of the stairwell shortly before their chase up it. This then gets cobbled into the scenario where whatever was captured on the stationary camera is supposed to be part of this set of events. But we never see the stationary camera set up at the bottom of the stairwell, and when its film is looked at closely, you can’t see any of the activity that is supposedly taking place directly above us and below the “ghost” – i.e. the chase. It doesn't seem like they were told to expect an apparition in the tower – most of the stories concentrated on the house nearby, and they had several cameras set up there. So if they did really catch an apparition on film, there is no evidence I can see to indicate they were in the tower when it was filmed. If Jason and Grant and a film crew had been climbing that stair at the same time, there should have been some indication of it on the film. It’s a straight shot upward and the stairs are metal grating, with some light coming in the windows. There’s nothing, It’s all perfectly still except for the movement at the very top – the “ghost.” So I think the whole story involving the chase and the motion detector has to be a fabrication to cover up the fact that no one really knows who, if anyone, was in the tower at the time the camera filmed that “evidence.” This doesn’t prove that the apparition on the film is faked, but it doesn’t help the believability, either.
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1:13 pm April 7, 2010
| Mary
| | Pondering what you're pondering | |
| Investigator | posts 147 |
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*waves* Hey! I haven't been here for a looooong time! This was the only GH episode I was the least bit impressed by, and now I've been totally disillusioned by this thread! LOL. I did manage to watch last weeks 'new' episode of GH, (after a very long time of not tuning in) and all I can say is, nothing much has changed since I've been gone. Still can't hear what they hear, or see what they see. I'll probably go back to watching Adam stuff ten thousand hamburgers down his gullet in thirty minutes. At least he has witnesses to his unbelievable feats of derring-do.
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"Quando omni flunkus moritati" ("When all else fails, play dead") – Possum Lodge motto. Jason and Grant should adopt it as their own.
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5:19 am April 9, 2010
| thetalkingmongoose
| | northish | |
| Investigator in Training | posts 18 |
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You're right. I hadn't even thought to correlate the times and levels. Pft. This doesn't end well, does it?
Well, the theory about Steve might be that it's a convenient phobia. He can use it to get out of traipsing up and down with the extension cords, and then it provides extra color for those investigating scenes. Multi-purpose!
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4:25 pm April 9, 2010
| The Doctor
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| Lead Investigator | posts 488 |
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The overlay times went weird very early in the series and are not to be totally trusted either.
Since they are put in the finished show by production people, we can't really blame J&G for allowing it to get screwed up EXCEPT that they should have some pride in the finished product and use what influence they do have to straighten it out.
Even without those we still should be able to see a continuous shot from the time of the ghost peeking over the rail at 23:55 to when ever they finally got to the top and triggered the motion detector. Since it took them 30 minutes to "chase" up the 5 levels I would expect them to fast-forward and show us the good bits, but that would be much better then what we are given.
Just to add a bit -
There are MANY instances where things that should have been recorded on the stationary cameras have not been shown to us. I understand that the production people have a limited time to fill, but…
there is NO reason that TAPS cannot make their original stationary video recordings available online for review by anyone.
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5:21 am April 10, 2010
| thetalkingmongoose
| | northish | |
| Investigator in Training | posts 18 |
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Oh, yeah – the overlay times are invariably completely made up, but the notion of what level they were supposedly on when this thing was being filmed, and how much time it took them to "chase" it is interesting to think about. If they had been on the second level all that time, there's no way they wouldn't be visible in some way on the film if they were in the tower. But they weren't, obviously. And we won't get to see the stationary film on either side of the "ghost" for the same reason people don't get to see sausage-making. I'm inclined to believe this was Pilgrim hanky-panky.
The sad thing is that they did seem to be experiencing something in the lighthouse, but it's impossible to believe anything they say when they fabricate stories as a standard operating procedure. If ever anyone was hoist with his own petard…
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1:33 pm April 25, 2010
| judyholiday@charter.
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This was the one Taps episode that I almost believed and now that I've read all of the negative comments I'm not so sure how I feel about it now.The one reason I felt soo strong about it being authentic was based on Brian and Dustin's reaction. To me they seemed sincere.I mean lets face it none of these guys are going to win an Oscar for their acting abilities but they really did act surprised and excited about what they were experiencing that night.So now I'm bummed because it seems like everything about Taps is fake and wrong in general.
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11:08 am October 7, 2010
| Judy Holiday
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I watched the re-run about the ST.Augustine Light House last night and just like all the other times that I have watched it I felt like it was the real deal.The guys just seemed believable and really excited.I suppose I'm going to get busted for falling for all of the drama but I can't help it.I would love to hear from other members on here as to why I shouldn't be so trusting when it comes to this episode.
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11:17 am October 7, 2010
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
| Moderator
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I watched this last night as well. I really have not seen anything before or after to make me think these guys are very good actors, and I saw reactions and "style" that looked like it was what it was made out to be. I wasn't expecting it to be on so didn't record it, would need to really pay attention to those vertical shots taken from the stationary but I thought something was also caught on the mobile Pylgrym camera which theoretically would have been right along with the investigators.
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Legal: The content of this post is copyrighted and is intended exclusively for use on skepticalviewer.com It may not be copied, distributed, or redisplayed on any other site without the express written consent of the author.
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2:44 am October 9, 2010
| Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Judy Holiday said: "I would love to hear from other members on here as to why I shouldn't be so trusting when it comes to this episode."
Hmmm…why you shouldn't be so trusting? Hmmm…ok.
Carl Sagan is famed for saying "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." With this in mind, what is TAPS claiming? Well, they don't exactly say, do they? I don't think that they ever come out and say that they filmed ghosts, shadows of ghosts that had manifested, or "shadow people." So right off the bat, things are quite murky. And then we get a look at a bunch of shadows. Is this extraordinary evidence? In my own personal opinion, I say no.
As I said, we get to see a bunch of shadows. Great. What do we not see? We do not see them debunking anything in the episode. We, the viewer, have no clue where the TAPS team or the production crew are in relation to where the shadows are. We also have no idea where the TAPS team or the production crew are in relation to the windows and/or internal light sources (things that can produce shadows.)
Judy, let me put this another way. Say you and I are in a very large house. We are walking down a long hallway. It's simply a dead-end at the end of the hallway. Half-way there, we see a shadow move across that wall. What do we do? If it were TAPS…they would move forward and give chase to the shadow at the end of the hallway. This sort of action is seen throughout this episode. And currently, any GH show with Britt will show him doing the same thing. What they hope to accomplish by doing this…I am uncertain. But…back to you and I, Judy. When we first see that shadow, what do we do? Maybe at first, we're startled a bit. That's fine. Human reaction. But logically…we're going to turn around and look for something that could be making that shadow. We're also going to note the light sources, after all, for a shadow to appear, we need to be aware of any light source.
Judy, in my example, you and I both acted in a very logical fashion. Let's get back to that episode now. TAPS, in essence, never turns around. They do not acknowledge that there are windows in the lighthouse. They do not look for external lights (cars, trains, boats, low-flying planes, whatever). We have no guarantee that internal lights ( flashlights or light emitted by other equipment) weren't causing these shadows. There is absolutely no reason to believe that TAPS weren't chasing and filming their own shadows.
We are simply not given enough information to consider this evidence of anything. We're finding that this is a common theme throughout the paranormal shows on television. We see a few seconds of film and then we're asked to marvel at it and simply wonder what it could be. It's actually insulting when you think about it. In fact, Judy, you mentioned the concept of trust…here's another example of what TAPS is doing:
Say I come over to your house. I walk in the kitchen and look at your counter top. I ask you to leave the room for 1 minute. After a minute you come back into the kitchen. I point to a can of soup on the counter, I wave my hands over it and it moves about a foot to the right. I then ask you to leave the kitchen again. At this point, I meet you in the living room and ask you "Wasn't that really weird? Maybe it was a paranormal event. Maybe a ghost moved the can." Now, would you simply accept what you had just seen and what I had just said? Of course not. You'd want to inspect the kitchen. You'd want to see that can. You would question why you had to leave the kitchen in the first place. Why did you have to leave the kitchen after the can moved? You see, Judy…this is what TAPS is doing with us with this episode and almost every other one as well.
So I hope this has given you a new perspective in which to consider. If you have any specific questions or technical aspects that you have issues with, please just post and I'm sure someone around here will be able to answer it. 
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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1:27 am October 17, 2010
| Mugs
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| Investigator | posts 30 |
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Albeit during my initial view, like so many others I too thought they may have finally captured something anomalous. Unfortunately when I watched it again I noticed a couple of oddities and upon further review noticed a few more. Before posting I decided to watch it yet again, I have little well really no doubt the so-called shadow entity was a living, breathing person…likely Jay or Grant, or crew. Here's why I feel same:
1] Albeit PTs [Pilgrim title/times] are not the most reliable – at times they married up with time stamps &/or clocks at a locale – based on PTs J/G were very close to the top when the 'shadow' peeked over. Pilgrim's titles were however misleading at times, for e.g., at one point it stated J/G were on the 2nd level/landing but they were where the wireless audio was placed thus at least 4 levels up…cam guy pans down the middle, see at least 3 flights of stairs [it was dark so may have been 4 even].
2] At times there was definitely some sort of light on at the top. Oddly we had views up [cam guy] and even when close to the top and it was really dark, couldn't even see the top [half moon shape]….but then in other views the half moon appeared as if it was illuminated. Same with DVR view, when first shown in a split screen with the TIC, it was really dark, see part of a couple of landings and a staircase then darkness. But when J/G sit at CC [sent B/D in] we see the monitor and the tower was well illuminated. See at least 6 landings & staircases plus clear up to the top half moon [ceiling at top level I would think] which seemed quite light considering. If their DVR cam was able to illuminate the tower like that, wouldn't the production cams see more too? IOW wouldn't the flooding of IR light from the DVR cam provide additional lighting to the small spot IR the cam guys were using?
Same with the miniDV Dustin had – unlike J/G who went up with nary more than a single flashlight between them - wouldn't the IR light provide his cam with additional illumination? If so why was the footage so dark that it was nearly black overall in most of the shots?
MiniDV footage of the 'shadow' darting off to the right: you clearly see a light was on up top and coming through the stairs, but only on the right side where the shadow happened to appear - B/D were only 2 levels, 3 at best, down. Clearly if there's light behind a person in an otherwise dark environment, they will look like a shadow form especially through the holes in the steps of a metal staircase. What was that light source, why was it so bright up top? Why wasn't it like that the entire time?
3] At Analysis, Steve shows Brian the 'peeking over at the very top' clip [DVR]: didn't show the very start when the head first peeks over at the landing below the top level, but he did show more of the 'at the top' portion [beginning of] - thanks Steve, this is a key point. Notice he first comes into view on the right side of the landing [our POV], just right of the center mark [dark strip in half moon]. You see a faint spot of light ahead of him – reflecting on the ceiling/wall – his shadow isn't as dark/solid as it becomes when he walks to the left side. When just left of center, there's now a bright larger spot of light beside and appears to go partially behind him [rather he obscured part of it, made his shadow form more prominent], he's facing left so it's a profile. As he steps left and faces the railing to peek over he obscures the light completely; shadow form gets even darker then fades somewhat as he leans/steps back. IMO the fainter and bright spot of light was a flashlight.
At Reveal: J/G show the clip starting with the head peeking over from the landing below – Jay stated it was 'about a couple of landings down from the top and it goes up to the top in a matter of a couple seconds'. Can't see the D/T stamp but based on the video time counter [mins/seconds] it was at least 6secs….cut to Paul after the head pulls back as he asked 'was that just it' and J/G say keep watching, IF G let the clip roll during that then it was at least 10secs. Here's the thing: he didn't come in from the right, as J/G both say 'voom' he pops up at the railing on the left side, no light seen before he pops up but as he moves back you see he was obscuring a bright spot of light. In that brief bit his shadow got darker, more solid then fainter again. Paul asks for a replay, show it from when he's moving back from peeking over up top: walks to the R-side, pauses, J/G claimed he then just disappears but IMO he simply moved back out of view.
Why did J/G make it appear as if he pops out below zips to the top in 2 secs flat and pops out on the L-side….when he didn't go up in a matter of 2secs, walked in from the R-side stops to look over rail once at the L-side, walked back to the right then away from the rail? Why didn't they address the bright spot of light? Steve noted it to Brian, claimed if it was a FL you'd see the beam of light: load of bull we've seen a FL plenty of times with no light beam evident, including when J/G were in the tower. Why no TIC view of it, it was solid enough to totally block out light sooo???
J/G are almost at the top – trying to sneak up - stop and Jay remarks 'can hear something moving above'….cam pans up where they were looking, there's a bright spot of light on the wall, akin to the one in their evidence clip. Not the production cam spot-IR, it's brighter and smaller plus it's behind the railing on the wall - see it between the rails, not reflecting off or shining on them on this side so it wasn't J's FL [think G still had it & it was off least didn't see it]…or was it J's? Who was up there? Did J/G go up while cam guy stayed to get the shot up; was it someone else; did J or G peek over before going up last flight then look over once up top; did they edit their footage to make it appear how 'they wanted us to see it'? There's more but will leave it at that for now. 
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1:39 am October 17, 2010
| Mugs
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| Investigator | posts 30 |
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Just want to apologize again for doing yet another mega long post. Difficult to note the things observed and various points trying to made with less info, I tried to do so but it didn't make sense to myself even LOL. Think I edited my post a dozen or more times before hitting the save post button. Also it isn't until after you hit it do you see the actual length; didn't seem as long when I was typing it. 
Sorry folks I know a lot of people prefer brief posts and often enough a brief comment is all that's needed, but when trying to show why this evidence – which so many feel may be one of the few if only times TAPS did capture something anomalous, as I too thought initially – is not what it seems [not PN] I hope you'll agree providing adequate justification was warranted.
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12:55 am October 18, 2010
| Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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@Mugs – No problem with the length of your posts. You've got things to say…well…say it. 
I've always felt that SV is a great place for civil (hopefully) discussions on the paranormal. Sometimes those discussions are long and involved. If people don't wish to read posts because of their length…that's up to them. But…many will. I know I do. The only thing…it may take a bit for people to respond. You throw out nine metric tons of information at time. So it takes a while to digest it and consider all the angles. For example:
Mugs said: "At times there was definitely some sort of light on at the top. Oddly we had views up [cam guy] and even when close to the top and it was really dark, couldn't even see the top [half moon shape]….but then in other views the half moon appeared as if it was illuminated. Same with DVR view, when first shown in a split screen with the TIC, it was really dark, see part of a couple of landings and a staircase then darkness. But when J/G sit at CC [sent B/D in] we see the monitor and the tower was well illuminated."
This was a good observation. That "shadow over the railing" at the top of the tower always bothered me. I never bought that "well, there's a light with a motion detector at the top so there's no way anyone could be up there." Really? Because it's inconceivable that it could be turned off after they found it? Really?
Could the shadows have been actually people (TAPS or crew) as opposed to their shadows. Very possible. Could be half and half depending upon the clip. I haven't seen the episode for quite a while. I'll have to check it out again…
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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