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Grant on researching locations

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12:59 pm
December 10, 2009


The Doctor

Lead Investigator

posts 488

This may have been posted before, but I find it interesting that GH/GHI/GHA are doing exactly the opposite of what Grant believed before the show started.  From 2002

http://web.archive.org/web/20020606093011/the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/arthunters/research.html

"

If you are simply ghost hunting, you need to do research in order to know where to go and when. But if you are on an investigation, then you need to do your research afterwards. Here are a few reasons why:

- When you visit a house you want to start off with a clean slate. You don't want to let the stories about the home limit what you feel there. For instance, if you read that a little girl was killed in the home 100 years ago, you'll subconsciously have that little girl in the back of your mind, and it will taint your investigation. This forces you to be true to your feelings, therefore being true to the homeowner.

- If you log every event and detail for later study, you can then compare those notes with what you find when researching the history of the home. Not only is your mind free of predeterminations but you get the satisfying reward of having your theories match closely with fact. This is a good way to determine how advanced your sensing capabilities are coming along.

"

1:07 pm
December 10, 2009


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2957

When they are setting up so few cameras compared to what they could/should…they pretty much HAVE to do advanced research, ie, The Tour so that they have a better chance of capturing something.

I think at least one team member needs to have a full idea of what the location has as far as potential…the rest can be left in the dark so to speak, but would receive guidance from the leader.

In sense this is what happens now…J&G&S go on the tour, and then Steve provides misinformation to the rest of the team so that they are all still left in the dark. Steve then forgets what was on the tour so he's in the dark.

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1:34 pm
December 10, 2009


The Doctor

Lead Investigator

posts 488

Nosfer said:

When they are setting up so few cameras compared to what they could/should…they pretty much HAVE to do advanced research, ie, The Tour so that they have a better chance of capturing something.


Comparing the amount of times they get something on a DVR camera vs. the amount of times they "see something out of the corner of their eye" that is not caught on camera, they would be better off pointing cameras randomly.

Seriously, when do they ever have someone say " it appeared right there "  so they point a camera there and actaully get something like what they were told ?   I think they are pretty much zero for 300 camera setups so far.

1:38 pm
December 10, 2009


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2957

When having the option between random and where someone says something has been seen, I'm going to pick the location where someone says something has been seen. It's probably no worse than random, and if there's any chance….

Plus, what do you expect for ONE night's investigation?

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4:15 pm
December 10, 2009


The Doctor

Lead Investigator

posts 488

Nosfer said:

When having the option between random and where someone says something has been seen, I'm going to pick the location where someone says something has been seen. It's probably no worse than random, and if there's any chance….

Plus, what do you expect for ONE night's investigation?


From Grant's definition, it is not an investigation, it is a ghost hunt – and I can see his point, they are hunting for the ghost that the client believes is there. 

 In many cases they have debunked and found what the client had assumed was Casper, but in which episode have they actually found the ghost they were lhunting for – the one that the client tells them about ?

ONE night ?  Consevatively 100 episodes @ 2 hunts per  -  at least 3 cameras -   That's 600 "camera-nights" pointed exactly where the ghost hunters feel the best chance to catch Casper would be based on the clients story.

4:29 pm
December 10, 2009


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2957

ONE night ? Consevatively 100 episodes @ 2 hunts per…

Yes, ONE night…at a location per incident. Client says the ghost (or Casper) is there (points at hall) The team sets up the ONE camera pointing at that spot for ONE night (yes, another camera may be pointed at the location of ANOTHER story). It is NOT the same as 600 nights pointed at the same location where a client says something happened.

So, to repeat, what do you expect for ONE night's ghost hunt.

You are basically setting up in a random location, but possibly with a little bit of skill assigned to that randomness because something has possibly been seen there…to me, not quite random beats total randomness. What have you got to lose by taking the client's story into consideration? Or…what do you gain by dismissing the story. If you set up randomly yourself, there's no skill involved in your forecast of where something will happen is there?

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4:56 pm
December 10, 2009


Learjet

Australia

Lead Investigator

posts 1122

Egg-scuse my ignorance of American places, but don't you have a number of ghost towns there in the once wild west? How come they are not investigated, or does it need to have business potential?

OD'd on EMF

5:05 pm
December 10, 2009


The Doctor

Lead Investigator

posts 488

Nosfer said:

ONE night ? Consevatively 100 episodes @ 2 hunts per…

Yes, ONE night…at a location per incident. Client says the ghost (or Casper) is there (points at hall) The team sets up the ONE camera pointing at that spot for ONE night (yes, another camera may be pointed at the location of ANOTHER story). It is NOT the same as 600 nights pointed at the same location where a client says something happened.


Actually, you would have a much better chance of hitting it correctly using 600 different locations, since a single client could be lying or mistaken and you would never get a hit at that spot. You might wait all year only to find the exact day when the moon comes through the window and reflects off the teapot and mirror.

In the article Grant also says -

"- You may overlook additional paranormal events because your mind is closed to them and only open to the events you read about in your research. For instance, if you know a man died in a certain closet, you'll probably focus your investigation in that closet rather than searching the entire home and finding one other room is WAY more active than the closet you had read about.

"

In this latest episode Jason sees a shadow pass by a light down a hallway, looks around but does not put a camera on it ( remember the meatloaf episode when he stands there staring at the shadow in the bathroom but never captures it ? ) , finally Kris and Amy see the same thing and he tells them to place a Mini-dv.

5:06 pm
December 10, 2009


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2957

Let's look at those numbers again…0 for 300 setups? Or 0 for 600 camera nights? 0? While not proven as definite ghosts, they were told about activity on the steps of the St Augustine lighthouse, and they were also told about the figure crossing the room at the Presidio. In both instances something was captured on the camera that was set to point in those locations.

There are at least two other instances I can think of where something happened where the client indicated something had been seen and was captured on the cameras…I will not include those because there is controversy surrounding them (Gaither cupboard and the door up in Canada)

But, the Presidio and St Augustine I'm comfortable including (I may be able to come up with others but it's not necessary). Right there, using the extreme number of 600, we have a 1 in 300 hit ratio…that's pretty darn good I'd say for ghost hunting or ghost investigating or whatever the PC term is… :)

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5:11 pm
December 10, 2009


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2957

Actually, you would have a much better chance of hitting it correctly using 600 different locations

They ARE using 600 different locations…they are not spending one year in a spot. Using your 600, they have set up 600 different locations, 600 camera nights like you said. So your "much better chance" doesn't really apply. How is 600 random locations "much better" than 600 client-suggested locations?

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5:44 pm
December 10, 2009


The Doctor

Lead Investigator

posts 488

600 camera nights at different locations where clients pointed them to is much better chance then 600 nights at a single location a client pointed them to. As I said if the single client is wrong, you are 100% screwed.

So far, the client locations have not given us results, yet random eye placement has produced unexplainable results in almost every episode.

I don't know current procedures, but if the crew cameras were left rolling at all times, including when the cameraman enters the area before the hunters and then turns around to film them, we should be able to duplicate the randomness. We should be able to catch some of the Caspers that Jay and Grant see around the corner or "over there" that we are simply not getting now aiming where the client says.  

If they are telling the truth, thier randomness is providing much better results then the fixed cams.

6:02 pm
December 10, 2009


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2957

As I said, they don't spend 600 camera nights ANYWHERE. We are talking placements for ONE night investigations…that was the premise here, we are talking GH, right?

So, one night at a random location is NO BETTER than one night at a client's suggested location. They go in for one night, the client says he saw X here, Y there, and Z there.

You say "Screw it, the client is FOS, let's put the cameras here, here, there"

Forgetting for a moment the question of why you're there in the first place if you don't believe the client, then that placement is no BETTER than if you had followed the client's suggestions. It MAY not be worse, but it is not "much better"

So far, the client locations have not given us results

See my post above where they HAVE.

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6:26 pm
December 10, 2009


alicat

Lead Investigator

posts 1215

Doc,

If you are going to take the time to go to a client's location because they contacted you for an investigation and then you arrive, hear their story, and then choose not to believe what they saw and where they saw it, why even bother to go at all?  It's simply pointless.  I don't get it.  I'm not seeing your point here other than this just being an exercise in being contrary. Undecided

6:52 pm
December 10, 2009


The Doctor

Lead Investigator

posts 488

Nosfer said:

Forgetting for a moment the question of why you're there in the first place if you don't believe the client, then that placement is no BETTER than if you had followed the client's suggestions. It MAY not be worse, but it is not "much better"


Count the number of hits using client placement vs. random eyeball placement. 

Re: St. Augustine S02E19 -

Client points out bucket that people hear getting picked up an dropped – no camera placed watching bucket

Client says lock at top is unlocked at night "numerous times" – no camera placed watching lock

Client says people have seen woman in white or little girl at tower top during severe storms – no camera placed watching tower top

The camera they place at the bottom inside looking up would not see the bucket, lock or anyone at the top of the tower hotspots per client.

Client says in basement people see image of man – camera placed – nothing found

Three other cameras placed – may or may not have been per client but nothing found.

Did they catch something paranormal on the DVR – possibly

Was it where or what the client suggested – Nope.

7:34 pm
December 10, 2009


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2957

Three other cameras placed – may or may not have been per client but nothing found.

Not exactly something to gloss over. If they weren't, then they were random and produced no results which hurts the "much better claim"

Presidio?

I don't recall where exactly the bucket was, but placing the camera at the base is aiming it in the general direction where activity took place, maybe not at EACH item but could capture things moving toward each.

If you don't consider that, though, throw it out and call St Augustine a random placement, I'll be generous. If those other 3 were random and got nothing, not too impressive. Presidio, I don't recall all the setups but the shadow they caught was a result of placement based upon a client's story.

Shadows seen out of the corner of their eyes don't impress me (see the thread on that) and cannot be used as evidence of a random sighting. We don't know if the sighting is even real. I don't recall if the shadow last night was client or random, it may have in fact been random.

But what does it mean…not a whole lot. Statistically you don't have enough events to say your randomness is any better than client-suggested.

How many actual pieces of evidence are there that stand up to our scrutiny and can be used here? Our sample set is too small. Client views usually yield nothing except in a few cases, random placements usually yield nothing except in a few cases…sounds like a wash to me.

If you want to compile a list of all their camera setups, whether they were random or client suggested, and whether or not anything was captured, I'll run the numbers.

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8:14 pm
December 10, 2009


The Doctor

Lead Investigator

posts 488

Learjet said:

Egg-scuse my ignorance of American places, but don't you have a number of ghost towns there in the once wild west? How come they are not investigated, or does it need to have business potential?


Been through a few of them, but most are just foundations and scattered wood, not a lot left. In the beginning of GA you see him walking down the main street of Rhyolite NV, that was abandoned relatively recently (1920)

Spent a night in the bank vault there some years ago.

an exception would be Bodie CA  http://www.hauntedbay.com/features/Bodie.shtml

Might make an interesting episode

8:50 pm
December 10, 2009


The Doctor

Lead Investigator

posts 488

Nosfer said:

Three other cameras placed – may or may not have been per client but nothing found.

Not exactly something to gloss over. If they weren't, then they were random and produced no results which hurts the "much better claim"

Presidio?

I don't recall where exactly the bucket was, but placing the camera at the base is aiming it in the general direction where activity took place, maybe not at EACH item but could capture things moving toward each.

If you want to compile a list of all their camera setups, whether they were random or client suggested, and whether or not anything was captured, I'll run the numbers.


They don't mention the other cams at all. If they were placed based on clients statements they were " ghost hunting", if not they were "investigating" we have no way of knowing … either way they got nothing.

The client said nothing about "things moving towards" the bucket ( or lock ) , it was the sound of the bucket dropping. Since the bucket could have simply levitated up and dropped it would be foolish for them to assume that something must have "moved towards it".

We can start now – how do you think we should count hotspots the client points out, but we never see that they put a camera there ?

10:00 pm
December 10, 2009


The Doctor

Lead Investigator

posts 488

Nosfer said:

Presidio?


Client mentions the lounge – camera placed

Client mentions the "main hall" where they would dance and have banquets - camera placed in ballroom ( there is a fleeting shot of another angle which appears to somewhat match what Steve calls the banquet room during the review)

Client mentions the kitchen – camera placed

Client mentions the viewing area – camera placed

No evidence is found on any of these cameras.

When they are wrapping up the investigation, Jason says to Tango " Hey Bro… anything?" Tango replies "not much".

It appears he and Steve never noticed the "shadow figure" that is captured randomly on a handheld camera in the banquet room as they are there -

They find it during the review -we never see any time-synced shot from the fixed DVR camera I mention above.   

Evidence from DVR cams aimed in areas where the client suggests – Zip

7:13 am
December 11, 2009


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2957

It may have been hand held, but wasn't that where the figure was said to cross the room?

They don't mention the other cams at all. If they were placed based on clients statements they were " ghost hunting", if not they were "investigating" we have no way of knowing … either way they got nothing.

What were they doing if some were placed where the client said and some weren't…ghost huntigating?

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