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EVP's not heard during airing of GH show…

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1:07 am
December 31, 2008


tickdude

Investigator in Training

posts 2

Hi there,

My first post. Supposedly, EVPs are sounds that are produced by paranormal phenomena that can only be heard on playback from audio recording devices. In GH, digital recorders are used to record and playback these phenomena. However, I have often wondered why the TV audience does not hear the supposed EVPs during the airing of the show since we are hearing the audio playback of the recorded event!

Just wondering if anyone has considered this problem with the supposed EVP's…

7:27 am
December 31, 2008


Wes

Spaulding Inn, Room 38

Investigator

posts 142

Hmmmm .. very good point, tickdude.

You would think the film crew's equipment would be picking up EVPs as often as the TAPS equipment, but I've never heard them make any reference to such a discovery.

"The truth shall bear all light."

7:27 am
December 31, 2008


NewbieGhost13

Investigator in Training

posts 19

That's a good question that I had not thought of. But one possible explaination (I think) is the reason  a recorded TV show when broadcasted doesn't produce the EVPS for us to hear at home is because the 'ghost' only imprinted its voice on that specifc recorder. Remember, that with all thier EVPS not a one of them (so far) has been captured on more than one recording device at a time.

The definition of an EVP is where the voice is imprinted on a recording device (more than one, I don't know about…that's the question we really need answered.) and that it was not heard at the time.

In other words, the ghost is not imprinting his voice on all recording devices that may be in the room at the time, just one of them.

Which is why I've been dying for them to put two recorders somewhat near each other to see if they both pickup the same EVP. if they did that and only one of the recorders had the EVP then that might mean that EVP really was something paranormal versus some random unexpalined sound.After all, if one device captures a sound that another one nearby doesn't then that's pretty interestingly, possibly paranormal. (EIther that or its broken……so in circles we go…)

Just a thought. Don't know if I'm correct or even if I made any sense. I tried. Smile

9:14 am
December 31, 2008


dr_peter_venkman

Rochester, NY

Investigator

posts 99

NewbieGhost13 said:

Which is why I've been dying for them to put two recorders somewhat near each other to see if they both pickup the same EVP. if they did that and only one of the recorders had the EVP then that might mean that EVP really was something paranormal versus some random unexpalined sound.After all, if one device captures a sound that another one nearby doesn't then that's pretty interestingly, possibly paranormal. (EIther that or its broken……so in circles we go…)


I agree that this would be an interesting experiment. Two identical recording devices in very close proximity could produce interesting results. As I see it there are three possible outcomes:

A. Neither device records any anomalous sounds. Unactionable.

B. Both devices record the same sound at the same time. This would lead me to believe that the source of the signal on the devices originated from sound energy in the environment. After all, this is what these devices are designed to do. I could also be convinced that the signal was from another source such as RF interference.

C. One of the devices records a sound but the other does not. This outcome would be most interesting. I have a lot of trouble with the theory that some entity is capable of imprinting a signal on a specific device while not affecting an identical device in the same location. I can't think of any known energy source that behaves in this fashion. I tend to look for explanations that adhere to the known laws of physics. Unless the signal was exceptionally long and clear, I would probably chalk this outcome up to noise in the device's electical system.

Hee hee hee! "Get her!" That was your whole plan, huh, "get her." Very scientific.

9:47 am
December 31, 2008


NewbieGhost13

Investigator in Training

posts 19

I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Hhmm.

Well, if Outcome 2 happens and both devices record the same thing, then that means we can somewhat safely say that whatever created the sound, interference, whatever you want to call it, really was there and no malfunction of the devices occurred. But what does that mean? That a ghost did create sound that both these devices caught? If so, then this brings back to tickdude's orginal question as to why other recording devices nearby (i.e. thier handheld cameras, the cameraman's camera…)wouldn't capture it. Or does it mean that a real normal sound happened and not paranormal?

The problem with outcome 3 is that I would have to believe that a ghost would choose to manipulate only one device in the room and its always the recorder. Why not other devices? How would it be able to do that? I'm i agreement with dr. peter venkman on this that I just don't see how or why a ghost could or would do that.

In short, which outcome would be most impressive for EVPs?

I don't really know myself. I can't quite make up my own mind.

So I'll say I'm in some ways more 'impressed' by voices that both are heard at the time and captured on the recording devices. Now, that doesn't mean it was paranormal or wasn't paranormal or hoax or real. It just means that there can be no doubt as to there being a sound or voice heard in that location which means no 'active' imaginations 'heard' something that wasn't there. It was there. 

Having said all this, that's why I'm extremely dubious of EVPs.

11:22 am
December 31, 2008


Sovolis

Minnesota USA

Investigator in Training

posts 23

I am extreamly skeptical of EVPs.  Generally I think they are total BS. 

Generally I believe that EVPs are nothing more than system noise, electrical feedback, or mundane sounds being misinterpreted.  The digital recorders that TAPS uses are very low quality.  Infact, they are lower than low quality.  I have some very good friends that are in an indie rock band and have been making indie music for 13 years now.  The guitarist has his own indie label and built a recording studio in his basement and has some very good recording gear.  His gear would be considered low to middle quality by industry standards(even though they have made a living at it for 13 years they don't have the resources that a record company has) and it is light years ahead of what TAPS uses.  I think this is also evident in the produced recording of the show.  Why doesn't the audience hear the EVP in the show broadcast????  Because Pilgrim has the funds for high quality gear.  The sound we hear is being recorded with a high quality, production standard boom mic.  That mic will pick up ANY errant sound.  I don't see how that digital piece of **** could possably pick up something that the boom didn't.

I also rarely see them put the recorder down while doing an EVP session and much of the time they are moving around.  On those low quality recorders who knows what a boot scrape on concrete or a jacket rustle is going to sound like on playback.  Esspecially since most of these can't be heard unless the volume is at a rediculously high level.  At those volume levels white noise could be misinterpreted into 'phantom sounds.' 

Without extreamly high quality gear and a stationary mic I will continue to believe that EVPs are BS.  There is just too much variable and potential for evidence contamination.

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. ~Thomas Jefferson

12:03 pm
December 31, 2008


tickdude

Investigator in Training

posts 2

Even if a ghost or other paranormal entity can choose the digital recorder on which to imprint, why don't the phenomena imprint on the film or video audio as often as the little digital recorders as Wes suggests?

I have to concur with Sovolis – a jacket rustle or even moving the recoding device and letting air pass by the microphone will create noise. Most of the noise is unintelligble, and only becomes "understood" once J&G "decipher" what's being said. They certainly understand how the human mind will "matrix" phenomena!

3:57 pm
December 31, 2008


NewbieGhost13

Investigator in Training

posts 19

tickdude said:

Even if a ghost or other paranormal entity can choose the digital recorder on which to imprint, why don't the phenomena imprint on the film or video audio as often as the little digital recorders as Wes suggests?

I have to concur with Sovolis – a jacket rustle or even moving the recoding device and letting air pass by the microphone will create noise. Most of the noise is unintelligble, and only becomes "understood" once J&G "decipher" what's being said. They certainly understand how the human mind will "matrix" phenomena!


Yeah, I agree too. I know there was at least 1 or 2 EVPs they caught that certainly sounded like a voice but to me it also sounded like something scrapping across another surface. It was weird to be sure. But that's all it was. Just a random sound mixed with background noise.

8:02 am
January 1, 2009


texasrebel

Investigator in Training

posts 5

I have always wondered why when they are doing an EVP session they sit around and BS all the time. Most of the EVP's all ways seem to come in the middle of their conversations. I have rarely seen them pick up an EVP on a recorder that is left in an empty room.

7:56 pm
January 1, 2009


The Doctor

Lead Investigator

posts 488

The original concept of EVP's appears to be that whatever a spirit uses for it's voice would in some cases not wind up in motion of air creating audible sounds, but somehow it's nature would cause it to wind up on a recording instead. This became much less plausibile with digital recorders, but the concept has stuck.

Now it seems we are being asked to believe that the spirit, in many cases without being asked to, can and does direct it's voice to a single recorder.

The problem I see is how the spirit learns this behavior.

Since the recording is not played back until later, just how does the ghost know he is talking to a recorder, a wireless mic, an EMF meter or a garage door opener ?

Just how does a 17th century soldier even know  what a recorder is ?

Most times all they would hear is  " Larry & Curly … Broom closet …. EVP session – Anyone here want to talk to us today ? " 

No wonder the most common reply seems to be " go away ! "

4:03 pm
January 2, 2009


Dedicated_Dad

Investigator

posts 64

All great points.

Personally, I think 99.999% of EVPs are just an auditory version of paradoelia.  Boot scrape, wind…  Who knows?  Could be as simple as a poorly-erased recorder "bleeding" through a previous recording.

Let's say someone says "Would you like us to go away?"  Later, the recorder is re-used, but the magnetic remnants of that recording remain.

Later, they're recording & say "Do you have anything to say to us?"

On the recorder we hear "———–—————–(would you like us to) "Go away" with the stuff in () being overwritten by their current conversation, so the bled-through noise sounds like it came from some "phantom" when in fact it's just an artifact.

I think the same thing happens when "ghostly" figures are seen on security tapes.  It's just a bleed-through from the previous recording.

All media should be formatted before every "session."  Only NEW tapes should be used, and those subjected to degaussing…

DD

10:29 pm
January 2, 2009


Stephen

San Jose, CA

Admin

posts 589

GH, and many folks these days, use digital recorders. That eliminates the bleed-through problem.

Unfortunately, the recorders that they use are digital voice recorders, which will do their best to turn any background noise into a voice.

Our ears and brain do the rest.

Stephen the Friendly Skeptic

2:00 pm
January 5, 2009


Dedicated_Dad

Investigator

posts 64

Stephen said:

GH, and many folks these days, use digital recorders. That eliminates the bleed-through problem.

Unfortunately, the recorders that they use are digital voice recorders, which will do their best to turn any background noise into a voice.

Our ears and brain do the rest.


Are they no longer using "wireless" recorders?  (which is a whole 'nuther issue)?  I'm still not 100% convinced there can be no bleed-through, given the VOICE-recorder piece. 

I'm a computer systems engineer, I fully understand how digital recording works, but consider the fact that (for example) with the right equipment the contents of an HD can be recovered even after multiple formats.  The only way to be SURE the contents are unrecoverable is to run it through a degausser.

For this reason, I'd still consider bleeding a possibility.  As you said, the "voice recorder" tries to turn everything into a voice.  Rare?  Sure, but given the number of hours of audio these guys collect, the larger sample size makes a rare occurrence statistically more likely.

Let's say (counting everything that can capture audio) there are 10 devices (probably too low) and each records for 8 hours a night/2 nights.  That's 160 hours of audio, or 576,000 seconds PER INVESTIGATION.  If they find one EVP every third investigation, that's 1 in 1,728,000 – which seems to me to be not long odds for a single "bleed through" event, if the "EVP" is 1-second in duration.  Most are less than 1/2 second, which effectively makes the odds GREATER than 1 in 3,456,000 considering time as the only variable…

I think this would be reduced by formatting the recorder's media before every "investigation" and most importantly never reusing any video-tape.  I'm POSITIVE that most of the "security cam" footage we've seen is bleeding, and much of the "camcorder" stuff from shows like GA are likely such as well.  Guy walking around in a white shirt in a dark room, all you can see is the shirt.  Re-use the tape, and a minor bleed-through looks just like an "apparition"…  If one had the time and ability to go through all of their previous footage I'd almost guarantee you could find something to overlay and prove this beyond any doubt…

Even leaving out the "wireless" bit, the stories of dental fillings picking up radio broadcasts are apocryphal, no question that some (much) "evp" could also be due to RF interference… Then there's the "compression" variable…

As an aside, I listened to a so-called "ITC" clip the other night – it was painfully clear the "ghost" was speaking Arabic, but the poor, delusional guy had managed to interpret it into some nonsensical "English" words…

Sorry for rambling…

DD

10:15 pm
January 5, 2009


NewbieGhost13

Investigator in Training

posts 19

This is what TAPS has to say on the subject of EVPS and their White Noise Theory, if you are interested.

You can find the following paragraph about half way down the page and cringe as you read this abomination to science:  http://the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/articles/technical/whitenoise.html

Begin Quote: Skeptics reasoned that the voices were caused by stray radio broadcasts or pre-recorded voices on re-used tapes. EVP researchers were quick to dismiss the second reason, affirming that they only used sealed new tapes for their recordings. And then, of course, digital recorders, which require no tapes, made that argument irrelevant [Thanks dedicated_dad for your insight!]– the voices still showed up.

Aside from outright fraud (and to be sure there is some of that taking place here and there), this left the skeptics with the one "reasonable" explanation: the voices were caused by fragments of radio broadcasts. This dismissive explanation makes it clear that these skeptics – who usually tout themselves as being scientifically minded – have never tried to record EVPs and have certainly not researched the phenomenon very well. (Unfortunately, this is very often the case with skeptics and the paranormal [What the…? We don’t do research…?. That statement just about gave me a stroke. In fact that whole paragraph does.]

If they had researched it, they would have found that the radio broadcast theory is absurd. Why? Because quite often, these voices actually respond to questions posed by researchers, comment on situations in a relevant manner, and occasionally even address the researchers by name. [Really? I was under the impression that most of them were of bad quality and ambiguous at best.] The chances of a stray radio broadcast doing this with just a few choice words are too remote to even consider by any objective person. Also, the voices are clearly not those of loudmouthed DJs or other broadcasters; they are voices of average people, children, adults, seniors, male and female. Some have accents and some are infused with human emotion. There are real personalities behind these voices, wherever they come from.  [So, what? DJs and broadcasters are people too! And what about other stray radio transmissions not just tv or music station broadcasts any radio transmissions, including walkie-talkies. Yes, walkie-talkie. It is possible for walkie-talkie transmissions to travel great distances. Rare, freakish, but possible. Really. Weird, I know.]

It is true that the quality of EVP recordings varies widely. Some are of such low quality that we're left to guess what the voice is saying. There are many, however, that are quite clear and are usually categorized as Class A recordings. These EVPs represent the best evidence for a phenomenon yet to be fully understood.” End Quote.

 

Now, there are so many things wrong with that I don’t know where to begin. Thanks again dedicated_dad for your information about digital recordings and their ability to possibly bleed-through. I didn’t realize they could do that! And you are absolutely right about your statistical conclusions. I've thought the same thing.

 And by the way, if any of you haven’t headed over to the TAPS website to read up on their theories and explanations you should do so immediately. I'm sure most of you already have but just in case…

http://the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/articles/articles.html

And be stunned by the lack of research, thought, common sense, real scientific analysis, and grammar skills (Oh, the grammar. As an English major I cringe. I’m not perfect either, but God, I have a spell-checker.) In fairness, a few articles seem to have actually been somewhat researched but only a few of them.

11:13 pm
January 5, 2009


Stephen

San Jose, CA

Admin

posts 589

DD: I'm in 90% agreement with you. But, as a computer systems engineer myself, I just don't see how bleed-through is going to be an issue with digital files. Yes, you can recover flipped bits with dedicated effort, but I don't see how it happens accidentally.

Since we're essentially coming to the same conclusion anyway, though, who cares?

Stephen the Friendly Skeptic

7:43 pm
January 6, 2009


Dedicated_Dad

Investigator

posts 64

Not having  REAL clue how the guts of a given device work, I may be totally wrong about it, though I'd thnk it would use bits in a specific sequence unlike a HDD…  Bottom line is that a format would remove all possibility of doubt…

Doc: Don't take my theory as gospel, please – it's just my thoughts…!!

DD

7:27 am
January 7, 2009


NewbieGhost13

Investigator in Training

posts 19

Well, dedicated_dad, you may or may not be right but it still gave me something to think about anyway. You know, though, it is possible that TAPS do indeed format thier disks for that very reason. I could have sworn I remember them saying something about doing that but I can't remember. But I have heard them say that when they do use regular tapes they always use new ones and never reuse them.

But like Stephen said, we're all essentially coming to the same conclusion so really, however EVPS are caught or whatever their origins, we mostly agree that they have very non-dead origins.

I'm really going with our hearing just turning nothing into something.

I acutally have the same software that TAPS uses (or at least used) and I've been trying to see (or hear) if the software they use could possibly make some sounds sound more like voices than they orignally were. So far I haven't had much of a chance to really experiment because I don't have the kinds of recorders they use but I'll get around to it. However, just messing around with some white noise and putting it through fliters I was able to turn the sound of my fan into a whine that almost sounded like a cat.

The more I think about tick_dude's original question of not hearing at least some EVPS during the airing of the show, the more dubious I become.

12:14 am
January 8, 2009


The Doctor

Lead Investigator

posts 488

12:24 am
January 8, 2009


The Doctor

Lead Investigator

posts 488

I think it's a little stretch between " given the right equipment" and what we seem to see here on a regular basis with Walmart quality recorders that contain NO magnetic hard drives.

Magnetic degaussing has no effect whatsoever on the flash memory used in the hand-held recorders.

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