The GH interest seems to have accelerated. After reading quite a few postings here, a few things have become apparent (to me).
1. Let's not forget that the show(s), including GHI, are for entertainment. We're watching it to see something different or unusual, not formulate and write a thesis.
2. Up to now, the only "Ghost Hunting" type shows that used "real" equipment was, perhaps, "Ghost Busters" so the fact that Jason and Grant are trying something new and different should generate some interest and it appears they have.
3. GHI is not a personal favorite but is is interesting to watch the different sets they're using for each show's location. Let's hope they're able to get the cast issues ironed out sometime soon as it appears there are some "issue resolutions" that could make an improvement. The director and/or producer should make a note to the cast of the issues they're having from the fans perspective.
4. Not being up to speed on just exactly what equipment to use and how to detect a ghost, it is interesting to learn with the team(s) what does (or doesn't) appear to work (case in point the Geiger counters).
5. If it is fact that the GH & GHI groups don't charge the home (or castle) owners for their services, then it must be funded by SciFi channel and sponsor money. Knowing how much vehicle costs are as well as gas, insurance, hotels, food, and the time for the production team and cast, this show must generate sufficent cash for the SciFi channel to renew it as well as bring out GHI as well. Almost everything in Europe is twice the cost of things here in the States and traveling across country from RI to CA by air and renting vehicle(s) is costly (ya think)?
6. Lighten up and enjoy the show, these are real people like you and me, not professional actors (obviously).
All in all, it's worth watching for me and I hope it doesn't get dragged down into "Format Hell" as so many other shows have.
Hope you all are well and enjoy life, we're not getting out of it alive !
Hi Piperman! I think you raise some good points. In the immortal words of the Mystery Science Theater 3000, "Please repeat to yourself: it's just a show, I should really just relax."
But that's actually what I'm doing. I do skeptical analysis of Ghost Hunters because it's fun. I like exercising my brain and trying to figure out– hey, they say that this shows evidence for ghosts. Does it? Frankly, one of the reasons I don't like the apparent hoaxes is that they're not as much fun to analyze.
GHI had the potential to be a fascinating travelogue show. It didn't work for me for two reasons. First, everyone seemed so serious; the original GH had some light humor. Second, about 80% of the show is in near-infrared black and white, which is not how I want to see Europe.
Certainly Pilgrim Productions is footing the bill for many things. A FLIR camera costs about $9K, for example. (It's interesting that so many of these shows use the same model. Sometimes I wonder if they share.)
Speaking of equipment, if I ever go on an actual ghost hunt, I will be sorely tempted to bring along a Magic 8 Ball. If anyone asks me about it, I'll be able to reply, straightfaced and truthful, that some people believe that random events can be influenced by psychic phenomena. Plus, it's as well-proven a method as any other to detect ghosts.
"I'll be able to reply, straightfaced and truthful, that some people
believe that random events can be influenced by psychic phenomena.
Plus, it's as well-proven a method as any other to detect ghosts."
That's very funny and totally true! Do you think that its possible that the people can create the phenomena (besides the obvious!) I mean their energy or that kind of thing?
Hi everybody- I have to confess I don't normally post on message boards but since I have every season of Ghost Hunters sitting on my shelf I guess I am a fan…skeptic! Most of me knows that this can't be real but there's that one little piece of me that holds on for that big piece of evidence! I think that when you work with a big sponsor like sci-Fi the pressure to keep a popular show on the air is great. Unfortunately I think things happen that aren't as they appear to be by their direction or editing just to keep a show popular.
Anyway my favorite line from the show is at the Lizzie Borden House when after they found nothing Steve comes out with something like "I guess any place with a gift shop probably isn't going to be haunted!"
"Anyway my favorite line from the show is at the Lizzie Borden House when after they found nothing Steve comes out with something like "I guess any place with a gift shop probably isn't going to be haunted!"
If I remember correctly, J&G then agreed and they all had a good laugh. At the time, I took it as they were actuallly sneering at the place knowing the place had no paranormal activity but was just looking for a shot at free publicity. Too bad their memories are so short. There have been many episodes since where gift shops were on site and they were very happy to declare them haunted. I'm waiting for the Spalding Inn gift shop. Hmmm … wonder what they will sell? Maybe they should hurry up and get those clearance items from blinddog50 or at least do a cross promotion with GHI and stock a few of Barry's hats. That way Revenant and blinddog50 won't have to get into a fight and (hopefully) they will be flealess!
1. Yes, GH/GHI is entertainment, presented as a docudrama. But that does not give them license to do anything they want, the events they portray must atleast be based in real events. They can not portray manufactured events as real. Reality-based drama is the tag they use, and that implies certain things.
4. It would be interesting to learn what equipment worked or didn't work if only TAPS actually could use their equipment accordingly and learn to interpret them. They don't even know how to use half of the equipment they have (case in point – FLIR) and nowadays almost exclusively use the equipment wich generate "hits", case in point the K2. That is not learning that is the opposite.
6. I enjoy the show, although not as much as I used to, and have nothing against J&G or any other TAPS member personally, but I find their actions as they are portrayed to be questionable, to put it mildly. Furthermore J&G are not you run-of-the-mill plumbers who happened to stumble into tv, they even tried to pitch their own show (a ghost-hunting drama show), which is how they got their show produced by Pilgrim in the first place. They are people who have an agenda to promote the paranormal field and furthermost themselves. And someone of the current line-up of GH is actually a professional actress, namely Kris Williams.
As for being dragged down into format hell, that happened a long time ago, the format hasn't changed since day one, and is today pretty formulaic.
And, nota bene, being critical of a show does not imply dislike, on the contrary the critique comes from caring for the show and for the paranormal field. That is also atleast my biggest concern, namely the disservice GH/GHI does to the actual paranormal research by portraying it in the manner they do.
Yes, GH/GHI is only a tv show, but it also has a responsibility to the matter it deals with, that is the paranormal field. If they don't want to take that responsibility (which is contrary to what they said in the beginning where they adamantly and clearly stated that their aim was to further paranormal research) they are free to do other things, why not that ghost-hunting fictional show they tried to pitch all those years ago…
I like when fresh views find their way into old threads. Anyway…
Stephen said:
Speaking of equipment, if I ever go on an actual ghost hunt, I will be sorely tempted to bring along a Magic 8 Ball. If anyone asks me about it, I'll be able to reply, straightfaced and truthful, that some people believe that random events can be influenced by psychic phenomena. Plus, it's as well-proven a method as any other to detect ghosts.
I happen to have a Magic 8 Ball right on my desk by my computer! I shall ask it "Is the Magic 8 Ball just as well-proven a method as any other to detect ghosts?" *shakes the Magic 8 Ball* The response? "Outlook Good." The Magic 8 Ball has spoken…
BigDan49 said:
Most of me knows that this can't be real but there's that one little piece of me that holds on for that big piece of evidence!
First off, welcome BigDan49. Glad you bit the bullet and actually posted. I understand what you're saying here. My perspective is a bit different. I don't "know" if ghosts (or any paranormal topic) are "real." I want it to be real. Yet, the evidence that has been presented thus far really isn't proving anything to me. So I think many of us are right with you about that "big piece of evidence." And really, it doesn't even have to be that big. Just something that, collectively, we can't explain. Random EMF spikes and pulling on lamp cords isn't going to cut it.
Alicat said:
Maybe they should hurry up and get those clearance items from blinddog50 or at least do a cross promotion with GHI and stock a few of Barry's hats. That way Revenant and blinddog50 won't have to get into a fight and (hopefully) they will be flealess!
Well…I guess Blinddog50 and I can wear the "roadkill" hats at the same time…just as long as they're different colors.
Bullerspoke said:
1. Yes, GH/GHI is entertainment, presented as a docudrama. But that does not give them license to do anything they want, the events they portray must atleast be based in real events. They can not portray manufactured events as real. Reality-based drama is the tag they use, and that implies certain things.
The words "does not give them license to do anything they want" echoed in my head. I think they are past that point and present the "Crossover" episode as proof.
"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
1. Yes, GH/GHI is entertainment, presented as a docudrama. But that does not give them license to do anything they want, the events they portray must atleast be based in real events. They can not portray manufactured events as real. Reality-based drama is the tag they use, and that implies certain things.
i totally agree and have one thing to add: they present themselves over and over and over as debunkers. and then fail to adequately debunk. this makes them LIARS. it's not "editing." it's not "entertainment." it's LIES. it's presented as reality when it is not. so to that I say, "hey gh, don't pee on my leg and tell me that it's raining, and don't get all huffy with the skeptics for saying that something is rotten in the state of denmark." people have a moral duty to call them out, or we'll keep getting morons who think this is actually "science" and who think this stuff is real. we don't have to get emotional about it (and, to peruse the websites, it's usually the fanboys who get upset rather than the skeptics), but we should absolutely demand better. in the name of science, knowledge, and for god's sake, decent television.
I somehow never expected to see the term 'moral duty' used in a discussion about GH.
Makes Dec. 2012 seem that much closer.
Please don't use the phrase "pee on my leg and tell me it's raining".
Might give Grant ideas.
I somehow never expected to see the term 'moral duty' used in a discussion about GH. Makes Dec. 2012 seem that much closer. Please don't use the phrase "pee on my leg and tell me it's raining". Might give Grant ideas.
hahahahaha! touche, blinddog50! thanks for the laugh!
I've been hanging out here and finally delurked. I'm a lifelong skeptic, so let me just put that out there. But I've always been addicted to these kinds of shows. I like the creepy atmosphere these shows present – maybe something left over from my gothy teenage years, I dunno. If people can watch a show about a dude making cakes, well I don't feel TOO bad about tuning into this kind of trash TV. It gives me something to watch while folding laundry or peddaling my stationary bike.
That being said, I'm addicted to these shows for a couple of reasons – I'm fascinated by why people believe in ghosts and what makes them scared. What is the group dynamic of ghost hunters? Why all the scientific technobabble? For me it truly is a "reality show" in that it's a peek into the mindset of a pretty active community of people whose worldview I don't share – I'm not religious, don't believe in the afterlife, etc. But I find it interesting to glimpse into this world of the paranormal community.
So for me, I don't really care if they're hoaxing or not. It doesn't bother me. That's probably a minority opinion, but when I see something that's an obvious hoax, I'm more curious – if you believe in ghosts, why do you need to hoax? Or do you tell yourself, well, "this one's for the ratings and I KNOW which ones are real and which ones aren't." I have to wonder the extent to which some of the ghost hunters are cynical manipulators and which ones are true believers – if any. I'm also curious about to what extent the production crew is faking – if I were a Hollywood exec my attitude would be: "let's get the camera guy to throw in a few hoaxes and see if these jokers can figure it out." If they never figure out they're being hoaxed by their bosses, to me, that's just desserts. Sort of like me making a crop circle and then kicking back to watch the fun! The ethics of that are debatable…but this isn't CNN or MSNBC.
After all, these are people that can sit in a quiet room and listen to a fart or stomach growl and seriously consider it a voice. I can't get too bent out of shape about anything else that proceeds from that – maybe I'm the rare "post-structuralist" viewer that considers the expected hoaxing as part of the experience. It's a challenge to my brain to try to figure it all out.
"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt." – Clarence Darrow
So for me, I don't really care if they're hoaxing or not. It doesn't bother me. That's probably a minority opinion, but when I see something that's an obvious hoax, I'm more curious – if you believe in ghosts, why do you need to hoax? Or do you tell yourself, well, "this one's for the ratings and I KNOW which ones are real and which ones
You are correct when you say your a minority. There are more believers then non-believers. But I disagree when you say you don't care if they are hoaxing or not." Whats the Harm". Who cares if people believe in "ghosts".
It is a fair question. Do these beliefs cause harm?
Paranormal shows are all based on Pseudoscience that masquerade themselves as science but have little or no scientific rigour or cohesion to them. They claim to be factual and scientific, yet do not adhere to scientific methodology and principles; notably the scientific principle of falsifiability. Pseudoscience research or experimentation that is carried out in the field is generally done more to justify the belief than to improve knowledge. Many people can go through life holding such beliefs without harm, there is a potential for harm associated with irrational thinking. People who uncritically accept one claim are just as likely to uncritically accept other claims. The potential for harm is not caused by any particular belief: it comes from the manner in which those beliefs are formed and the uncritical way in which they are accepted.
So for me, I don't really care if they're hoaxing or not. It doesn't bother me. That's probably a minority opinion, but when I see something that's an obvious hoax, I'm more curious – if you believe in ghosts, why do you need to hoax? Or do you tell yourself, well, "this one's for the ratings and I KNOW which ones are real and which ones
You are correct when you say your a minority. There are more believers then non-believers. But I disagree when you say you don't care if they are hoaxing or not." Whats the Harm". Who cares if people believe in "ghosts".
Believe me, I'm with you 100%. I understand the dangers of magical thinking as well if not better than anyone. But where I differ is here – and this is me talking on behalf of just me and not the skeptical movement as whole – I DO care if people believe in ghosts, or god, or UFOs, or supplements, or fad diets. I want to know why people choose to believe this stuff. Because it is a conscious choice. This site, among others, has done a great job of debunking these shows, and yet people still watch them. Randi and Houdini before him and now Penn and Teller have done an admirable job of debunking every kind of charlatanism under the sun – and yet people still turn to it. Darwin should have left the god hypothesis cold in the grave, and yet people still choose to believe.
Woo woo sells because people WANT to buy it. Science, rationality, medicine, logic – these things are all real and all have the ability to cure what "ails you" for a cheaper price than the goofball stuff people invest their time and money into. And yet ours remains the minority opinion. Everybody has a gris gris – the human animal seems to tend toward irrational beliefs.
For me, as a lifetime skeptic – I've become more curious about the root cause of this need. Yes, I know magical thinking feeds itself. People who believe in, say, ghosts, are likely to believe a whole bunch of irrational stuff – and, more dangerously yet – they are likely to behave irrationally in the voting booth. But the reality remains, simply debunking these beliefs doesn't make those beliefs go away. If that were the case, Jason and Grant would have never made it past that "shadow man" at Eastern State Pen in season one!
Woo woo seems to contain some value for the believer that more rational thought lacks. And I don't know what that is. Yes, I like to watch a little Ghost Hunters or whatever for purely entertainment value – the same reason I might watch Jersey Shore or Rachel Ray. I'm not going to suddenly become an abusive douche bag or start cooking that food – there is something prurient and pleasurable about kicking back on my sofa and smugly oggling the trainwreck. I'm willing to admit that.
But with the paranormal shows – I know people who believe this stuff the same way they believe that the sun will rise tomorrow. This isn't a job for all skeptics – but I'd like to know why the hell that is. How can you treat the "disease" without understanding its cause?
"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt." – Clarence Darrow
I think it may be to do with brain function. The higher thinking part of the brain is a more recent evolutionary development with the lower and much older animalistic brain yet to be made completely redundant. Much of the time our animal brain is still dominant, which is why we believe in things that are not there, go to war and kill each other and behave rather badly in general. We run on emotion and auto reaction rather than logic, reason and common sense. These relatively recent evolutionary traits are yet to fully engage. Maybe they never will before we all self destruct.
I think it may be to do with brain function. The higher thinking part of the brain is a more recent evolutionary development with the lower and much older animalistic brain yet to be made completely redundant. Much of the time our animal brain is still dominant, which is why we believe in things that are not there, go to war and kill each other and behave rather badly in general. We run on emotion and auto reaction rather than logic, reason and common sense. These relatively recent evolutionary traits are yet to fully engage. Maybe they never will before we all self destruct.
My 1c worth.
Yes, I actually think you're right. The amygdala is responsible for all kinds of survival mechanisms. It's also where our fear response comes from. I'm not sure the amygdala's "lizard brain" need for certainty mixes well with our higher order thinking powers. People want to feel safe and without fear. The belief in an afterlife or in powerful aliens can give that to us. The mystery fulfills a poweful psychic need.
"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt." – Clarence Darrow
I DO care if people believe in ghosts, or god, or UFOs, or supplements, or fad diets.
To lump all of these things together does not make sense to me.
- Belief in ghost is belief in something that has never been proven scientifically, and probably never will be
- Belief in God is faith, and due to obvious problems with people talking about this subject I will leave it at that (as should you) :-D (for now)
- UFO's/aliens are scientifically possible, even likely, yet are still not proven.
- Supplements? I assume you mean vitamin supplements. These DO help people, depending on the reasons why they are being taken. Bodybuilding, deteriorating health, etc. There are a million of them though and as always there are exception and there are some of those who are out to make a buck on people in need.
- Fad diets. Hmmm. Again, as supplements, they usually work, if done correctly and for the right reasons. I have a family member who did one of these "fads" and it work incredibly!! Again, as with every subject there are always exceptions
I guess I just don't see any connection between these topics. Am I missing something?
I DO care if people believe in ghosts, or god, or UFOs, or supplements, or fad diets.
To lump all of these things together does not make sense to me.
- Belief in ghost is belief in something that has never been proven scientifically, and probably never will be
- Belief in God is faith, and due to obvious problems with people talking about this subject I will leave it at that (as should you) (for now)
- UFO's/aliens are scientifically possible, even likely, yet are still not proven.
- Supplements? I assume you mean vitamin supplements. These DO help people, depending on the reasons why they are being taken. Bodybuilding, deteriorating health, etc. There are a million of them though and as always there are exception and there are some of those who are out to make a buck on people in need.
- Fad diets. Hmmm. Again, as supplements, they usually work, if done correctly and for the right reasons. I have a family member who did one of these "fads" and it work incredibly!! Again, as with every subject there are always exceptions
I guess I just don't see any connection between these topics. Am I missing something?
Aspects of these phenomena that have not been scientifically proven require "magical thinking" in order for the believer to believe. That is, they require some modicum of faith. Vitamin supplements are as good an example as any. There is a great skeptical podcast called Quackcast that covers medical woo woo. There's is a supplement out there called Airborne that has been proven to not only not help you get over a cold, but which has been further proven to actually cause your body harm in high doses. If the stuff had efficacy it would be patented and sold as a drug at a much higher cost. Despite the thorough debunking of this stuff by not only the able doctor at Quackcast but by the FDA and the news media, people still buy this stuff. I would suspect this is because the proffered possibility of an arrest of flu symptoms is behind that desire to make the purchase anyway. The same goes for the fad diet – the possibility of wish fulfillment causes people to turn off their rational thinking process and buy the program/product, even when evidence towards its efficacy runs counter to plausibility.
We could go down the list on this stuff – but I think the very definition of "faith" is belief in something without the presence of supporting evidence. This is truly what a poster upstream means by "magical thinking." You believe in the reality/efficacy of something despite any supporting evidence and often even after contrary evidence has been presented. Some good evidence has been presented here and elsewhere that Grant from TAPS is faking evidence. And yet he still has his "faithful" defenders. People's desire to believe trumps their rational thought.
This is really what I'm interested in. Why do people believe and defend this irrational stuff and why are some areas of irrational thinking sacrosanct? You mentioned religion. Well, we have no more evidence for the existence of god as we do ghosts and, certainly, if the existence of life after death could be scientifically proven that would give the god hypothesis a huge boost. But that's an area of thinking we in the skeptical community are often encouraged to leave alone. Everyone has a gris gris. I know many skeptics who are religious.
My hypothesis would be that when you boil it down, that kind of "magical thinking" is a common current within human behavior. The power of belief – faith in something – if you will, is what drives the folks who believe is, say, the paranormal. I think that's why it's important to UNDERSTAND why people believe this stuff. It's fine to debunk it all, but yet people persist in believe even after that has been done. Yuri Geller still has followers, and I assure you I'm ten times the spoon bender he could ever be!
If we can assume that belief without evidence is a conscious choice – and I think it has to be, because I don't need to believe in something I KNOW – that I'm interested in understanding the behavior that motivates that choice.
"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt." – Clarence Darrow
I guess as a skeptic I am not sold. To take the example of Fad Diet, most of the time when they fail it is due to real world reasons: the person is not following the diet properly, they "cheat", give up, or loosing willpower. In the end if you follow the diets, they work.
To me, you are "magical thinking" when you say that someone can "believe" themselves thinner. Diets have measurable results. They can be tracked in many scientific/medical ways. Believing its going to work and then it does, well, how on earth can you prove that?
Even the supplements, if they are proven not to work, but people "believe" as you say and take it and they work, it could be for other reasons. Say they are taking a supplement to gain muscle bulk, they take the pill but exercise more. The pill does nothing but they gain muscle, so they believe it is working. It isn't, it isn't their belief, it is them working out more.
I guess we would need to take it on a case buy case basis, and I don't really care to do that. I guess we agree to disagree
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