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7:53 pm November 11, 2009
| HipKat
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| Investigator | posts 45 |
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blinddog50 said:
HipKat said:
I've been to South of The Border…
Definitely something sinister going on there!
Without a doubt, that 'Pedro' guy is totally demonic.
Anyone that puts up signs for 200 miles in every direction has to be evil
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12:39 pm October 6, 2010
| Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Ok…so my review of this show is a bit late…sue me. 
A couple of weekends ago, I inadvertently ran into the Buffalo Bill Museum. We were driving by the mountains, saw a sign for "The Lariat Loop" and just turned (I'm like that…). So we went up the mountain. Quite beautiful actually. Many places to stop and just admire the view. Tons of trails and "mad props" to all the people biking UP the mountain. That's just a bunch of crazy. Anyway…
We run right into the Buffalo Bill Museum. I'm a sucker for very small and very odd museums, so checking out that was a no-brainer. As I'm walking around, things are starting to look strangely familiar. Then, it hit me…GH had been here! This is Logisti's review. So I found the time and recently reviewed the episode on Youtube.
So…my first crack at actually seeing a GH location. There are three main sections. The first is the museum itself. It's everything that you think it is and much, much less. Well, I suppose it's ok, but I wouldn't recommend it as a "must see" destination. The next section, and the one that I shall go into detail about later, is the restaurant/gift shop. The gift shop is so jammed packed, I'm guessing it takes 4-5 months to do inventory. It has to be pretty close to a Guinness record for most painted ceramic animals on the planet. The last section is Buffalo Bill's grave. I'm not much of a "grave-seeking" kind of guy. I may admire one's abilities and/or life and I may be interested in seeing some of their creations or body of work…but seeing a grave, I feel no connection.
There's also a couple of communication towers outside the fenced-in area. GH were spouting EMF nonsense all over the place. When hearing that the towers might come down, they volunteered to come back and look around again. As of two weeks ago, the towers were still up…so Colorado is safe from GH for the time being.
Now…J&G came away feeling pretty good about debunking the story of the Kachina dolls flying off a shelf. They looked up, so a huge heater and came up with the theory that when the heat comes on, it could cause the dolls to fly off the shelf. When you don't think about it too much, there is a knee-jerk reaction to kind of nod your head and kind of agree with them. The story is kind of "weird" to consider so seeing the heater and hearing what they came up seems reasonable. And only seeing the episode on TV, I would agree with them. After being there…I now disagree with their theory. And here's why:
TAPS, as we've seen and proven many times, has many flaws. Two flaws that come to mind is a lack of a scientific background and an utter lack of thinking beyond what they can physically see. For example, they refuse to acknowledge any sort of atmospheric dynamic as simple as air currents. And if they physically cannot see a window or feel a breeze (not acknowledging that air currents or wind could possibly be inconsistent…)…then the paranormal must be considered. We're seeing this currently with all the moving doors being treated as paranormal evidence of something.
Back to the dolls flying off the shelf. The heater does seem like a good culprit. Only problem is…the dolls flying off the shelf isn't an on-going problem. It happened only once. This tells us that something else is in play. After all, the heater, which looked quite old, has gone on hundreds if not thousands of times. What was different?
Just outside that room is the main gift shop. Not twenty feet from that doorway is a huge industrial fan near the ceiling. Do they shut that fan off at night? Probably. Was it off the night the dolls flew off the shelf? That is what I highly doubt. After all, we're looking for a change. Something different. The weather in Colorado can change greatly over a day. Many joke that you run the AC during the day and the heat at night. Especially on a mountain top. From the location of the fan, the air flow is going to split because of all the shelving and racks. An air current would come out of that room and most likely follow the outside wall of that doorway…the wall that has those dolls on it. The heat kicks on, hits the cool flowing air…and dolls closest to the edge get pushed off. No need to call in Scooby or Thelma in on this one…
So I will give G&J partial credit because the heater was involved. But without the fan being on, I'm not seeing the heater, by its placement, being the sole reason for the dolls coming off the shelf. And since they cannot see the fan from that room and they couldn't feel the air current at that given moment…then how, oh how, could it have been that? Seriously? Kids…just stay in school…
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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1:14 pm October 6, 2010
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
| Moderator
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Nice you got a chance to check it out…did you have anyone create a slight "diversion" so that you could go flipping switches to do some experiments? :) I do have to wonder the odds of the exact right combination of both pieces of equipment doing their thing at the same time only once.
I still also have to wonder about seismic activity, despite the woman's claims. You don't necessarily have to feel it yourself for it to set up enough ground acceleration to knock a poorly-balanced doll or three off a shelf. Funny how GH immediately accepted her answer and dismissed the possibility.
There have been Intensity III in Golden and you really only need a II to start having things move, and on the Richter scale there have been 4s and even 5s in that area. There are Quaternary and earlier faults just west of the museum and younger ones a bit further west of those, too, so I definitely wouldn't rule out ground shake. Be nice to know the date of the "incident" so as to be able to check the records. And Kris wouldn't even have had to go to Reston since NEIC is right in Golden lol
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12:14 am October 7, 2010
| Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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I forgot to mention why I discounted the seismic activity angle. But like Logisti, I had to give "Pete" from Warehouse 13 a few points for bringing that up.
I'm thinking that a quake, even a smaller one but can perhaps move a few dolls off a shelf, would make the news. Not national news, of course. But local news. They get very excited about that kind of thing here. It's also something that people want to "get in on." You know…"Hey, did you hear about the earthquake yesterday? Did you feel it?" People get excited about that kind of thing too.
So when we get back to the story of the dolls flying off the shelf…they weren't seen by customers, but by employees. People who live here. People who definitely would have heard about a quake. So…I'm hoping…that if a quake did hit, they would have instantly said "Hey, you know instead of something paranormal happening, maybe it was that quake." Because if not…then sadly we're left with "Wow! What a day. An earthquake and ghosts knocking things off our shelf. Wow!" And that's not an answer that I even want to entertain.
And yes, it would be great if we had the actual date that these dolls supposedly took flight. But you and I both know that ghost stories just don't work that way… 
Oh, and lastly, I think I did a poor job in explaining the position of the huge industrial fan to the large doorway to the wall with the shelf to finally the heater. I still like my scenario though. Did I want to flip a few switches? I always want to flip switches! But to recreate my scenario…man, we would first need to really drop the temperature. When I went, it was quite warm. The heater wasn't about to kick on anytime soon. Plus…any changes to the positions of the racks and what not would have altered the air current. So…I'd have to really play around with that. I mean we are looking a very rare occurrence. The dolls have only "taken flight" once. But after seeing the set-up…I really like the odds that my theory is correct. It wasn't just the heater. It's too far from the shelf and the angle is wrong in relation to the wall and shelf.
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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8:24 am October 7, 2010
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
| Moderator
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Don't suppose you could whip up a floor plan showing the relative positions of the shelves, the fan, and the heater? Really wish they would do that for these shows, something that MH and GL seemed to get right for a change!
The dolls are in the dining area? The fan is 20 feet in through the door (with the words "Gift Shop" above it)?
Is the shelf with the dolls on it on the same wall which the door is in? I'm trying to visualize what the thermal flow would be like in this place.
Edited: By the way, if she says she's lived there for 25 years and never experienced anything (in answer to the seismic activity question), then her credibility as a witness really went down a few pegs lol
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12:56 pm October 7, 2010
| Nosfer
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I've been looking at the first part of the youtube video for this episode.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCn6B5ok07M
At 5:06 into this video there is a shot of the door going into the gift shop (Rev, that's the door I was asking about when I asked if the fan was on the other side of that door). There are shelves on either side of the doorway as well as barrels and a bear, wooden, I presume.
At 6:58 to 7:02 we see the same scene through the eyes of the camera they set up as Steve explains what we're looking at. He points at the shelf to our left of the door and has a bit of dialogue:
"Camera one is of course, uhh, as you can tell, the, uhh, cafe, and that's where, you know they claim that there's dolls that are flying off that shelf so we've got that whole room all covered."
He points to the shelf as he's talking about the dolls. So now we know exactly where those dolls are, right?
Wrong. Go to 5:19 and watch for a few seconds as the doll story is described. And the dolls are shown. Not even close to the same configuration or even ceiling type as which they aimed their stationary camera at to capture this activity. Whoa! And Steve was on the tour so how did he mess that one up so bad?
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2:27 pm October 7, 2010
| Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Nosfer said: "Wrong. Go to 5:19 and watch for a few seconds as the doll story is described. And the dolls are shown. Not even close to the same configuration or even ceiling type as which they aimed their stationary camera at to capture this activity. Whoa! And Steve was on the tour so how did he mess that one up so bad?"
At first, I didn't see what you were talking about. Now I do. I can't even express to you how poorly edited this entire show is. Steve is actually correct. When they show the dolls at 7:02…they are showing the dolls themselves as in "these are the type of dolls that moved, not the locaton of the event." When you see the cafe and the shelves…you do not see the dolls because they probably moved the dolls since the supposed paranormal event. So Steve has the camera in the right location…you just don't see the dolls.
From looking at the contents on those shelves at the time when I was there, I do not believe that the items are "static." More of a "here's what is on sale, marked-down, featured, whatever else" kind of space as well as candy, aspirin, and hot sauce.
If you go to 4:53, you will see the gang in front of a serving table (it has a soft drink machine, condiments, etc). In back of that is the grill. Behind THAT wall is where the huge fan is. At 4:58, right behind Jason, you can see the doorway to the gift-shop. It's blacked out because the lights look to be off. It's not a normal doorway, maybe double the width or more of a normal sized door.
At 5:02, you can see another doorway. That leads into another small room with sales goods. That is where the heater is.
Just seeing how Pilgrim films these scenes…I don't know if they are intentionally making things as difficult as possible or that they are just terrible at what they do for a living. Granted, this gift shop/cafe is oddly shaped, but their camera work of it is simply dismal. From just looking at the episode, one cannot get a good feeling of what they are looking at. Yeah…that bodes well for a television show that cries "Believe in us and believe what we are showing you…"
Nosfer also said: "By the way, if she says she's lived there for 25 years and never experienced anything (in answer to the seismic activity question), then her credibility as a witness really went down a few pegs lol"
Yeah, I thought that that was extremely odd as well. The only thing that I can come up with is that she may have been saying that at this particular location, she may not have experienced a quake strong enough to knock things off of shelves.
Quite a few years back, I was visiting a relative who lived in the San Bernardino Mountains in California. While I was outside in the back chopping wood for the fireplace, the dog, who was just laying there, suddenly jumped up and braced herself by spreading out her legs. Never saw anything like that before, it was quite interesting. Anyway, there was a small quake in the area. Knocked a few things off of stores shelves, but nothing huge. But on the mountain, I never felt anything. Perhaps that is what she meant…and it just didn't come across like it (or it got edited out…).
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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3:40 pm October 7, 2010
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
| Moderator
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Start watching at about 7:58 which is after the investigation starts. Where Grant is standing is near a cash register area and he's saying that is where the doll incident was. You see shelves, then it shows J&G and the Warehouse guy standing in front of a counter which has a keyboard, probably to the sales system.
Behind them are display spindles. If this is where Steve's stationary camera was aimed and where he was pointing when he described the dolls, then we should see tables behind them. There is also no cash register system in front of that shelf that they aimed the stationary camera at in the cafe area. And there is just acoustic(?) tile ceiling above it and no heater system.
They are definitely not standing in front of the shelves seen at 5:04 which is where Steve said the activity took place. The doorway through which the heater is is at 5:02 (5:04?) that would indicate to me that the heater is NOT in the cafe, and thus the doll incident was not in the cafe though Steve has the stationary camera aimed in the cafe. They sure don't make it easy!
Here's what I've got pieced together so far which I can adjust/correct, especially specifics of the fan and heater:
 
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12:18 am October 8, 2010
| Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Wow…this really is messed up. 
Grant is wrong. He is in the wrong location. Two things support this. First, why would Steve set up the camera in the cafe then and get the "ok" from J&G? Secondly, I asked a guy who works there about it and he pointed to where the dolls supposedly flew off the shelf. It was in the cafe, NOT where Grant is standing at 7:58. Why does Grant think he's in the right place? Maybe because there were dolls in that location on that particular night? Maybe the lady misspoke and gave them two locations? Maybe Grant is just being Grant. I don't know. I can't explain half the things that that guy does… 
Your schematic is quite good, by the way. I shall use the top of the page as "North."
For the location of the fan…go to the bottom of the page (south) and complete the wall. Once past the wall with the grill and doorway to the gift shop…that portion of the gift shop is quite narrow. Maybe a third of what you have for the cafe. It has that wind tunnel affect (the gift shop doesn't open up and become wider until well past the doorway going north). Once that is complete…stick the fan against that south wall in the newly defined part of the gift shop. I know I said 20 feet from the south wall to the doorway. Now, I'm thinking it was less. Maybe around 15-18 feet. I didn't realize I was going to have to remember dimensions and distances ( ).
For the location of the dolls flying off the shelf…look at where your blue dot is. Just a bit north and a bit EAST. It's on the corner of that shelf. So Steve is in the right room, but the angle is a bit off. He's aiming at the wrong shelf but at least he's in the right room.
Why so much confusion? Maybe they were told different things. Maybe I was told something different while there. This is shaping up to be quite odd…which makes me question how many other shows are just like this?
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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6:46 am October 8, 2010
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
| Moderator
| posts 2957 |
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I shall update my schematic with your refinements and repost when I get the chance in a bit. Thanks, the extra info helps refine this. This one is certainly worth tackling because of what we're finding.
The problem with Jason saying it's okay for Steve to shoot that shelf is that he also goes along with Grant in the wrong place and debunks the wrong area. Yeah, I know, it's not really hard to imagine both happening :)
I don't trust Grant when it comes to actual events happening during the investigation. However, I really don't trust Steve either when it comes to things like remembering sequence of events or the stories from the walk-through. As examples…Fort Mifflin (Steve vs Grant) and the Oak Alley Plantation candlestick story that he tells Tango during the investigation.
And above all, I guess I don't really trust that any of them has their hearts into it enough anymore to really care if they are shooting the right thing or debunking the right place, either. On that note, though, I do believe that Steve is probably the more into it of the three.
Also, in support of Steve, if I remember right, during the tour, the woman mentions the dolls by saying "in here" which would indicate inside the cafe since that's where they were standing. She doesn't really point any place specific, though, from what I recall…although they give you the impression that the camera simply pans right to show the shelf (which is obviously a clip shot in another room) The first thing I'd do, and hopefully they as well, would be to corner her about specifics, and perhaps they did off camera.
With all these problems, I am starting to wonder, though, if we might be being sent on a little wild goose chase here. There are some distinct differences in her two tellings of the event (which are only about 7 or 8 seconds apart) It's almost like she's trying to put this across as paranormal despite her claim of being a museum and fact-based. I don't really know how far up the list of possibilities I'd put quakes or tremors to be honest, but she did dismiss that pretty quick as if to immediately rule out any natural explanation by simple dismissal.
Well, let me do some more playing in paint later and see how I can refine the floorplan.
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