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9:24 pm April 8, 2009
| Haephiteus
| | Taylor, MI | |
| Investigator | posts 54 |
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Ok if someone can maybe fill me in on what I missed. When Jay is in Mr. Tinneys room and he aims the FLIR at the open door (to the room he looked into when he and Grant first entered). There seems to be a heat signature on the floor just inside the other room. It seems to slowly move inside the room. Jay holds the FLIR there for a few seconds. I was actually waiting for him to say, "What was that? Rewind etc. When he said nothing, I thought, ok he's by himself and he did'nt see it right away. When It was'nt mentioned in the reveal, I decided to watch it again. Watching it again I noticed that he hesitated on this area, but yet nothing is mentioned of it.
I really would like to know did I miss something or did Steve and Tango?
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You are a god among insects. Never let anyone tell you different. ~Magneto
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6:20 am April 9, 2009
| Oubliette
| | Igloo in NJ | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 574 |
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I would have to re-watch last's night show, but this would not be the first time viewers have seen or heard things that were not mentioned by Jay or Grant. Either it was something they already knew about and realized the source, or else they did slip up and missed evidence. Trouble is, if it is later brought to their attention it is extremely hard to get them to look at it or even respond one way or the other. Seems once they do an investigation that's the end of their interest in it, period.
BTW, was I correct in that they were talking about a single footprint that seemingly was walking away from them? First off, it didn't look like a footprint to me. The first thing I thought of was "rodent", although Jay said they would have seen one if it was there. Also, why only one footprint? Was the ghost walking on only one leg?
Maybe I missed the point of that evidence. Again, I'll have to watch that episode a second time with emphasis on the above-mentioned FLIR bit and the "footprint".
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If 50 million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
Anatole France
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6:30 am April 9, 2009
| StanTheMan
| | Lincoln, RI | |
| Investigator | posts 89 |
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For what its worth:
My daughter's college is in the area of Newport's mansions and for 6 or 7 months back a few years ago she worked as a tour guide at Belcourt Castle. She is in fact the guide who was clapped for although she didin't see anything at that time. Shortly after she began working there she told me she saw something moving in a corner of the chapel and mentioned it to another guide. He told her she had probably seen the monk as most people who work there did. She thought she saw the same thing a few more times after that. That and the people clapping were however the extent of her experiences.
She watched the investigation last night and had a few comments: she said most if not all experiences that she had been told about were in the light (although with the stained glass windows the chapel is never really bright) and asked why they turned off the lights. No answer for that one. She also said that like most older buildings in Newport (or anywhere for that matter) have mice. She thought the FLIR was just a mouse running and asked me why they didn't check to see if there was a rug where it disappeared as it looked to her to run under something. No answer on that one either.
She is not really a believer in the paranormal but does beleive that the monk is really there. She thought they spent too much time chasing noises and not enough looking for the monk.
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6:50 am April 9, 2009
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
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@Oubliette I was about to bring up the "hopping ghost" myself lol Not only was it only one "print" it did not look like a footprint at all to me, either.
Since it stopped and remained motionless when they stopped, and then moved when they moved forward, doesn't that sound like it's a reflection on the floor? The reason it fades and reappears is because the floor was made of slats or planks…the edges where there is a join is not as reflective, thus doesn't appear to reflect as much.
Looking at the thermal image, I see other reflections on the floor as well. I'd have been looking for something at at least head level (maybe even ceiling level) at an equal angle up away from that spot (angle of incidence equal angle….)
No, they kept looking at the floor. Doesn't sound like they understand reflections very well. The earlier episodes last night showed they didn't understand the thermal operation either. They had the range set on manual rather than auto, that's why most of the shots were washed out yellow…the range was way to great for the area they were in. And these guys are going to be TRAINING??? :( I see another generation of equipment mis-users being born.
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7:10 am April 9, 2009
| Oubliette
| | Igloo in NJ | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 574 |
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Nosfer, I think you solved the "footprint". Since these guys really don't know how to calibrate, operate and interpret the FLIR correctly, it would be easy for them to miss this simple, but sensible, explanation.
I too thought not enough attention was paid to the monk. It was creepy and the stories about it sounded like something out of "Kolchak: The Night Stalker". Wow, I'm dating myself now but I really enjoyed that show.
And this is the kind of stuff that they are going to teach students in Ghost Hunting 101. Sad.
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If 50 million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
Anatole France
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11:18 am April 9, 2009
| HollyDolly
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| Investigator | posts 194 |
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By the way,what is the story of the Monk of Belcourt Castle?
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1:05 pm April 9, 2009
| alicat
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I just copied the contents of my post on this forum to the comments in the Belcourt Castle section.
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2:13 pm April 9, 2009
| dr_peter_venkman
| | Rochester, NY | |
| Investigator | posts 99 |
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Nosfer,
I agree with your hypothesis on the heat signature 100%. I immediately thought they caught a relfection of a light bulb on the ceiling. I was actually yelling at the TV during the reveal. These guys are killing me. It's not the mistakes so much but the apparent lack of improvement. It's like they don't learn anything.
I thought Jason's explanation of the K2 to be enlightening. He sounded like a guy who didn't really understand something he really didn't believe in.
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Hee hee hee! "Get her!" That was your whole plan, huh, "get her." Very scientific.
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4:16 pm April 9, 2009
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
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dr_peter_venkman said:
I was actually yelling at the TV during the reveal.
LOL, It's refreshing to find out that I'm not the only one who does that!
Two random light ups of the K2 is enough for Jason to be convinced that ol' Tinney wants him to leave. Two random light ups in the Bowling Alley in the next episode is not enough to make any determination that someone is trying to make contact with them.
Come on guys, don't insult my intelligence!
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3:49 am April 10, 2009
| Haephiteus
| | Taylor, MI | |
| Investigator | posts 54 |
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As for the footprint? I like the idea of a reflection of a lightbulb, but there are no lights on but what about a flashlight or the light from a camera. The one thing I noticed is that the larger room, I'm not sure which one, I just remember seeing this hideous looking shiny floor, which looks like the industrial tile in my kitchen. That floor looked reflective.
Another thing, I originally thought they were standing still, but I think they later said they were following it. Which to me makes sense of it moving on a shiny floor and disappearing when it hit the wall.
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You are a god among insects. Never let anyone tell you different. ~Magneto
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5:09 am April 10, 2009
| dr_peter_venkman
| | Rochester, NY | |
| Investigator | posts 99 |
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Haephiteus said:
As for the footprint? I like the idea of a reflection of a lightbulb, but there are no lights on but what about a flashlight or the light from a camera.
The light bulb doesn't have to be on to be detected. It just needs to still be warmer than the surrounding area.
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Hee hee hee! "Get her!" That was your whole plan, huh, "get her." Very scientific.
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5:36 am April 10, 2009
| Oubliette
| | Igloo in NJ | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 574 |
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dr_peter_venkman said:
Haephiteus said:
As for the footprint? I like the idea of a reflection of a lightbulb, but there are no lights on but what about a flashlight or the light from a camera.
The light bulb doesn't have to be on to be detected. It just needs to still be warmer than the surrounding area.
So true. That goes for anything producing heat, including human handprints or footprints. Surfaces do not cool down as soon as the source of heat is gone. I wonder how many paranormal investigators have gotten excited about finding stuff like this without realizing what they are looking at is actually residual heat.
Grant was really trying to stretch the description, making it into a "heel to toe" footprint. Guess this is a one-legged ghost. They didn't seem to even question why there was only one print.
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If 50 million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
Anatole France
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6:04 am April 10, 2009
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
| Moderator
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Photos showing a perfect example of bulbs radiating heat just after they've been turned off:
http://www.skepticalviewer.com/2009/03/22/fort-mifflin-steve-vs-grant/
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3:11 pm April 10, 2009
| Learjet
| | Australia | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1122 |
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I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but I still don't understand it. Every time GH finds a "ghost" like in the torch episode, it's cold, freezing cold. So how is the FLIR which detects heat supposed to pick up a freezing cold ghost? I don't get it.
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3:40 pm April 10, 2009
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
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The FLIR is designed to show temperature, regardless of whether it is hot or cold. This is another one of those cases where we get different theories. The cold is supposedly from the being drawing in energy from the area _surrounding_ it in order to 'manifest' (whatever the heck that means) A drawing in of energy would make the area around the entity colder and the energy that is drawn _in_ would make the entity warmer than the surrounding area…the area that it just sucked all the energy out of.
Why would the flashlight itself be cold? Who knows. My big question is…how come the entity doesn't drain the energy out of the batteries like what happens to their recorders and and cameras? The entity is being told to screw with the flashlight so we know it's right up next to it. It's cold so it's drawing energy, yet that lightbulb was bright as ever!
Yeah, I know, we need to quit thinking logically…this is one of those shows where you need to suspend reality for an hour :)
Edited: Just ran over the footage of the hotspot again…unfortunately J&G are using the thermal in the most unhelpful mode. Instead of having it set to read the temperature at the indicator, it's set to display the average temperature of the ENTIRE SCENE. So, we have no flipping clue what the temperature of the hotter spot is.
I froze it right when the indicator is dead-centered on the hot spot, it reads 52.8 degrees. They move it off the spot and the entire scene average is 57.4 degrees. So, once again we are shown no useful data.
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3:57 pm April 10, 2009
| Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Learjet said:
I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but I still don't understand it. Every time GH finds a "ghost" like in the torch episode, it's cold, freezing cold. So how is the FLIR which detects heat supposed to pick up a freezing cold ghost? I don't get it.
Well, not all the ghosts show as cold. Some show as hot. I've never been quite clear on how they can be either cold or hot. Man, I'm not even exactly sure on how ghosts are supposed to effect temperture changes in the first place. I keep reading "they draw energy from around them." And the result of this process could either be hot or cold flucuations in temperture? Um…what?
EDIT: Had to stop mid-post to walk my dog, so I never saw Nosfer's post.
Nosfer, I see what you're saying. Any thoughts on what "energy" the ghost is drawing from the cold and what process it's using to convert it to heat?
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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4:07 pm April 10, 2009
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
| Moderator
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I think I have proof of (or can at least make a very strong case for) a reflection now:
Performed another experiment here. I have a hardwood floor. I went barefoot. I have an IR thermometer.
I swept the hardwood floor (no not with a broom, with the IR thermometer) and got a 57 degree reading (which varied +/- 2 to 3 tenths of a degree in the area sweep)
I then stood with one foot in one spot for 60 seconds. At the end of 60 seconds I measured the footprint and got a 79 degree temperature reading. I then continued measuring back and forth across the spot. After 3 minutes and 30 seconds I was still getting a 2 degree increase that was very distinctly the edges of my foot print.
Interestingly, in the thermal that we see at Belcourt, when the hot spot moves the area that it was at prior to moving almost INSTANTLY returns to the temperature of the rest of the floor. And from what I can see of the scale, the hotspot is definitely more than 2 degrees warmer than the rest of the floor. My foot print took over 3m30s to return to ambient, the hotspot moves and the floor immediately returns to ambient temperature.
Standing in another spot for 2 seconds raised the temperature enough so that it took well over 15 seconds to return to ambient temperature. Yet the thermal hit we see almost immediately returns.
This was a reflection. The handprint stayed in place because the surface temperature of the wall had been altered. When they catch their reflection, they see it moving because the temperature of the object is NOT altered, but the thermal is seeing a reflection of something ELSE that IS warm, but the object itself does not change temperature.
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12:40 pm April 11, 2009
| kevin
| | Louisville | |
| Investigator | posts 54 |
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I don't understand how the thermal hit can be interpreted as a footprint, either normal or paranormal. Wouldn't there be a series of stationary prints leading to wherever the "foot" is walking rather than one continuously moving footprint? Is the entity dragging its foot? Wouldn't a dragging foot produce a line of heat?
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2:21 pm April 11, 2009
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
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Exactly, Kevin. If it is an object physically on the floor and that object is warmer than the floor, then there would be heat transfer to the floor and the floor would remain at an elevated temperature after the object moves and you would then get multiple hotspots (or one long smudge) as it moved.
This does not happen, therefore what we are seeing is not an object in contact with the floor. Yet when it goes over the doorjam, it distorts as would a beam of light going over an obstruction. So it is in contact with the floor, but not transferring heat to the floor.
What can be in contact with the floor, have the characteristics of heat, but not transfer that heat to the floor? A reflection of heat does that nicely.
What bothers me is that they didn't even TRY to debunk as a reflection. The closest we get to even a hint at a reflection is when we get the following exchange:
Jason: We move and it doesn't start to move until after we are moving.
Grant: Look at that, it's so weird…and there's no other reflection
Hmmm, no other reflection…does Grant realize what it is at this point, or at least suspect, or does he slip his tongue?
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