The Forum [is where Ancient Roman skeptics hang out.]

Current User: Guest Login Register
Please consider registering


Lost Your Password?

"Are You Here With Us?"

Reply to Post
UserPost

4:14 pm
April 9, 2009


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

In "The Cuban Club" thread, MissBlue wrote a thought-provoking post.  I thought it would be best served to discuss it here in the forums.

MissBlue wrote :"TAPS could just as easily say to the ghosts "draw on this paper with a pen" or "pick up this string," but instead, Jason and Grant (especially Grant) like to rely on mechanical objects, like flashlights, that are much easier to manipulate by, say, unscrewing the flashlight, tampering with the battery, rigging the flashlight somehow (elaborate, but possible, I suppose). Why are K2 meters and flashlights the only objects TAPS uses on a regular basis to interact with ghosts? I just don't get it. If a ghost can pick up a coffee mug, I'll be impressed."

We have come at the problem of how to improve investigations in the past.  Many good ideas have come about.  The unifying theme has always been one of science.  Yet, this problem…is tricky.  Let me pose the question:  What type of experiment would you design that would enable the TAPS team to interact with ghosts and provide rock-solid evidence that "we" would consider paranormal?   

The members of TAPS shall always try to communicate with ghosts.  No matter how you feel about it or what you think about it, as Jason likes to say "It is what it is."  And…it shall always be.  They typically use three methods.  The first is simply asking the ghost to make a sound without them using any sort of equipment.  The second is using recorders to capture either actual sound or EVP's.  The third category I shall name "controversial experiments."  That category consists of the K2 meter and the Flashlight.

There have been many posts on both of those two items.  Collectively, I think I would be safe to say that we are not quite happy over their use.  So, let's toss them out.  Even using a Faraday Cage for the K2.  I think the K2 reputation is too far gone now.

So, what we need is to design a new experiment for them.  One that they would be able to handle performing given their level of expertise that we've seen while using their existing equipment.  In other words, it needs to be simple.  However, it also needs to be able to garner the type of evidence that all of us would be able to accept as "paranormal."  We need to remove any possibility of "normal explanations."  For example, MissBlue offhandedly said that she'd like to see, essentially, a coffee mug move.  Ok, but strings can be involved.  We need to remove this kind of…possible explanation.  *cough*…Collargate…*cough*

Keep in mind, your experiment shall be run in the dark.  How will results of the experiments be determined in real time, in the dark, and on film? 

And as an extra added bonus, only because I'm feeling generous, your new fancy-schmancy experiment will not be run by Jason and Grant.  It shall be run by Steve and Tango and/or Kris and Amy.  I decided that a few of you may invoke the "Grant List" reason as to why no experiment could be run without seriously questioning the results.  So I am removing that factor. 

I thought this would be a simple one to answer, yet, I really haven't come up with anything on my own yet.  It was harder than I thought.  Everything I came up with ends with me being able to use some "trickery" of some sort to alter the results.  So, enjoy.  I look forward to seeing what you guys can come up with…  

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

4:34 pm
April 9, 2009


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2957

I'm not sure there is one. With post-production editing they can put anything in they want. If we require a Full-Bodied Apparition appearing, one could always be digitally overlain for when the episode is shown. They can claim they are live, but what proof could they offer of that? Do we really KNOW that the Halloween episode was truly live? Could have been, and until shown otherwise I will accept that it was (mainly because it isn't really relevant)

I think one additional requirement would be my presence and actually doing the tests myself :)

Legal: The content of this post is copyrighted and is intended exclusively for use on skepticalviewer.com It may not be copied, distributed, or redisplayed on any other site without the express written consent of the author.

8:36 pm
April 9, 2009


Wallydraigle

Ohio

Investigator

posts 114

I don't think there are really any good controlled experiments you could perform out in the field, but you could at least take some steps to give yourself some measure of credibility, which TAPS seems particularly averse to doing.  I think a pretty good, simple, thing to set up would be to put some putty down on a table, so you get an air tight seal, then put a non-metalic pendulum inside a bell jar, inside another bell jar, and point two cameras at it.  Or, they could have a sealed glass tube made up with the pendulum inside it.  They could probably sell the K2 meters and have enough money.  Does it prove anything?  No, but it's at least better than "Give us a sign of your presence."

This is still fresh in my mind because it was on wednesday, but when Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb, er, I mean Steve and Tango, were in the house at Wright-Patterson AFB, and they had the EMF meter sitting on the table and it kept spiking, which they interpreted as something pacing in front of the table, I'm yelling at the TV, "Put a meter at each end of the table!"  If they spiked alternately, it still wouldn't be much, but it would at least be something, and at least they would have tried.

How does that saying go about doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results?  Yeah, I get that it's just a TV show and they don't really care what happens as long as people keep watching, but they're going to be out there all night anyway, why not put in an honest effort?  I know it's boring for them to be out there doing the exact same things investigation after eventless investigation.  One would think they'd try to inject some critical thinking into the mix just to give them something to do besides wander around in the dark looking at an EMF meter.

11:04 pm
April 9, 2009


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

Wallydraigle said:

I think a pretty good, simple, thing to set up would be to put some putty down on a table, so you get an air tight seal, then put a non-metalic pendulum inside a bell jar, inside another bell jar, and point two cameras at it.  Or, they could have a sealed glass tube made up with the pendulum inside it.  They could probably sell the K2 meters and have enough money.  Does it prove anything?  No, but it's at least better than "Give us a sign of your presence."


You had some really good thoughts here.  First, and almost automatic, is the non-metalic element to the experiment.  Too easy to use magnets.  A pendulum within a sealed environment (glass jars or tubes)…also a good idea.  Prevents external forces such as wind (breeze, breath, etc).

The problem, it doesn't eliminate all the external forces, such as vibration.  Set the sealed jar on a table on a wooden floor.  Jump up and down.  The vibration may be enough to cause the pendulum to move.   And there is always just bumping the table out of camera range.  To prevent these, a "geophone" could be placed by the table.  However, one could attach fishing line ( Innocent ) to the bottom of the jar.  Simply position the cameras so they are close in on the pendulum.  Tug the line, the cameras won't catch the movement of the jar (since it's see though glass) but it picks up the movement of the pendulum.  I would doubt the geophone would pick that up from the floor.  And I don't think I'd be comfortable with the geophone on the table itself.  They could just claim that the ghost was using enough force to set it off. 

So….we need a non-metalic object to move…yet…be resistant to vibration.  (I kept looking at that sentence for what it seemed liked forever until I came up with the rest… Laughing )

Hmmm…what if we use the vibration itself as the movement?  I'm not sure how we could do this with solids, but we can do it with liquids!

Use a wave tank (a big glass fish tank).  Fill it half way with water then seal the top with glass.  Zoom in on the surface of the water with a camera.  Tell the ghost to touch the water.  If something (a ghost, a finger, whatever) breaks the surface of the water, the ripples from that point shall travel outward.  If someone taps on the tank, jumps up and down next to the tank, or even tugs on the tank with fishing line, the ripples will form at the sides of the tank and travel inwards.  (Try it at home.  Use a large surface area, like a baking pan or a cookie sheet with a deep lip.  Fill it with water.  Try making the ripples of the water move outwards without breaking the surface of the water.) 

So, in essence, if you are talking to your ghost and outward forming ripples begin to show up, well, it becomes pretty interesting at that point.  I also like that it "betters" the theme of "How do they know what a flashlight is?"  Or "How do they know to talk to a recorder when they're supposedly from 1822?"  Everyone has touched water, no matter what time period.  So really, my concept would be easier for ghosts to understand than theirs. 

A couple of problems with this.  One, they're in the dark and can't see the water.  I guess to pick up the water with night vision equipment, you could use black ink in the water.  That "should" show up as white on their camera and possibly easier to see (not sure on that, but it should, right?).  Of course, even easier…turn on the damn lights!  Laughing

It also kind of lacks the "Wow factor."  Then again…a couple of guys in the dark talking to a flashlight isn't overly impressive either… 

One last problem…sort of.  I just remembered this.  Jurassic Park.  Remember the scene where the kid is in the jeep and notices the water in the cup on the dashboard moving?  It was rippling with each step of the T-Rex.  Behind the scenes footage showed how hard the guys had to work to get that effect.  They ended up drilling a hole through the dashboard and attaching a piano wire to the bottom of the cup.  They hollowed out the inside of the car in order to have enough length for the wire.  Then, they just "twanged" it.  So, it can be done.  However, for TAPS to do it, they would need to drill a hole through a table and then actually have someone beneath the table to "twang" the string.  That's an awful lot of set-up though.  Easy enough to prevent though, just have a second camera viewing the wave tank from a distance and showing no one underneath the table.  And synching up the cameras of course.  Then again, I know how they hate using those time-stamps…  Laughing

Anyway, this is all I could come up with.  I'll keep at it… 

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

11:29 pm
April 9, 2009


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2957

The trick, though, is to not make the experiment so tamper-proof that the ghost itself can't do what is asked of it! Afterall, we don't know the limitations of these beings. Can they influence things inside double-sealed glasses?

If something did happen, it might provide that proof, but how much evidence would be lost merely because what we asked as proof was simply something that not even the ghost could do?

In that case, action would be proof of ghost, but lack of action would NOT be proof of NO ghost.

Legal: The content of this post is copyrighted and is intended exclusively for use on skepticalviewer.com It may not be copied, distributed, or redisplayed on any other site without the express written consent of the author.

12:19 am
April 10, 2009


Stephen

San Jose, CA

Admin

posts 589

I think it's going to be hard to figure out a way of proving the existence of a ghost because we have no definition of "ghost"– and the definitions we've been given make no sense.

Let's take Grant's definition: "a ghost is a person without a body." Well, I'm a materialist (meaning that I think that everything kinda-sorta consists of matter, not that I like owning SUVs, etc.). The existence of anything immaterial whatsoever is what I'm trying to prove to upset my own personal applecart. Without evidence of anything nonphysical about a person, that's like saying it's an elephant without a pachyderm.

There's no way of disproving the existence of an "intelligent haunt" by experiment, since there are no set rules which such an entity must obey, and it could simply decide not to play on any given day. A "residual haunting" should be easier to prove or disprove– but despite being constantly repeating, these hauntings seem remarkably difficult to document.

Probably all that's left is the Wiseman approach: see if commonalities in paranormal reports for a location are statistically significant. If that's the case, then something external in the environment is probably causing those (or the subjects have similar predispositions). It's extremely hard to avoid curve fitting in such situations, but without a plausible mechanism, that's all I'm left with.

Stephen the Friendly Skeptic

2:33 am
April 10, 2009


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

Wallydraigle, Nosfer, and Stephen- All of you made excellent points.  I won't argue against any of them because I'm right there.  Even while writing my two posts, I raised many of those points myself.  Yet, here is the problem…

TAPS doesn't quite embrace these views.  And their show (and GHI) is what we have to work with.  I read thread after thread of why things don't work.  We know their experiments are flawed because the theories (if you can call them that) behind the experiments are flawed right from the beginning.  It's just bad science all the way around.

Yet, there has to be a starting place for TAPS.  We've had threads that explain how to properly use their devices.  That's step one.  Changing their "belief system"…not going to happen.  At least I don't think it is.  But maybe, just maybe…by devising a couple of "hoax-proof" experiments, it just starts them on the right path.  At least we won't go as crazy while watching the show…

While coming up with the "LPV" System (Liquid Phenomenon Verification…like the swanky name for my water experiment?  Laughing ), I was kind of laughing a bit because I have no clue what a ghost is or does.  And I'm certainly not expecting the TAPS team to provide me with those answers.  But their experimentation is what we're stuck with.  We are virtually handicapped by it.  Instead of complaining about it, I just wanted to get a little proactive and devise a couple of things that at least make sense in their own right.

But yeah…this is a GIANT uphill battle.  Devising experiments to work within the confines of the TAPS mentality?  Um…yeah, SUPER-GIANT uphill battle.  At least it's kind of fun though.  Smile 

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

6:15 am
April 10, 2009


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2957

Yep…and the use of Kris and Amy to perform the experiment wouldn't really lessen my apprehension. They are all overseen by Pilgrim and I can't help but believe if something in the way of "communicating for the ghosts" were going on that Pilgrim wouldn't be in the know. That's why at the very least I would have to be there observing or taking part.

With the paranormal, the surest way of convincing someone that it exists is for that person to experience it himself. Otherwise there is always doubt.

Legal: The content of this post is copyrighted and is intended exclusively for use on skepticalviewer.com It may not be copied, distributed, or redisplayed on any other site without the express written consent of the author.

7:27 am
April 10, 2009


Learjet

Australia

Lead Investigator

posts 1122

I like the water experiment idea, er LVP. The question is if the spook can interact with it.

I'm not entirely ready to discard the K2. It's still useful as a cheap wide band field strength meter for AC / RF electromagnet fields, picking up anything frequency wise from DC to daylight. It would also detect moving magnetic fields. Very easy for someone to hoax with it, yes, but if a spook actually creates a wide spread spectrum RF electromagnet field, this may still be of some use.

Ghost hunters just don't use the K2 properly. Really, it should be used in conjunction with various other RF spectrum analysers,  frequency reading EMF meters, close signal lock scanners and frequency counters to paint a picture of just what's flying about in vicinity of the meters in the electromagnetic spectrum. Unfortunately GH don't have the collective intelligence to pull that off.

I also don't understand the way they question the spooks. "If you want us to leave make the K2 blink". For heaven's sake they came all that way to investigate and they ask a question like that? In any case the same question needs to be asked several times so there can be no mistake. Not once!

How about this… if you want me to jump off a cliff, make the K2 blink. Weeeeeeeeeeee! 

OD'd on EMF

2:04 pm
April 10, 2009


Hannah

Texas

Lead Investigator

posts 361

Get Nosfer, Revenant, Stephen & Learjet guest spots on GH. 

Hmm, how about sprinkling baby powder on the floor and asking the entites to walk through it.  Its cheap, and with one of the above guys to witness it.  I will stand back now while the experts rip this suggestion to shreds, but it was fun taking a stab at it.  Laughing 

2:46 pm
April 10, 2009


Learjet

Australia

Lead Investigator

posts 1122

A pity we all live so far apart. Otherwise we should all get together and make a paranormal investigation team. Only I doubt we would ever find anything, so I guess there's not much point Lol.

OD'd on EMF

4:33 pm
April 10, 2009


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

Hannah said:

Get Nosfer, Revenant, Stephen & Learjet guest spots on GH. 

Hmm, how about sprinkling baby powder on the floor and asking the entites to walk through it.  Its cheap, and with one of the above guys to witness it.  I will stand back now while the experts rip this suggestion to shreds, but it was fun taking a stab at it.  Laughing 


I don't want to rip anyone's suggestion to shreds.  Mainly, well, because it's just not cool to do so.  We're just trying to avoid possible trickey to produce positive results.

As for your suggestion, Hannah…which I'm about to rip to shreds…no, I'm kidding!  Actually, I kind of like it.  Easy to do.  Cheap to do.  And it does address the "hearing footsteps" issue.  Also, hard to fake prints if you lay down enough powder.  An added bonus if you find tiny paw prints, which can help in indentifying the sounds.  So, yeah, I'd add it to the list.  All you need is a fancy-schmancy name for your experiment.  Something like the ATO (Apparition Tactile Observations  Laughing  ).

As for Nosfer, Stephen, Learjet and I getting guest spots on GH.  Yeah…those guest spots would have to be measured in seconds.  At least the confrontations with security would be fun, at least for me.

And really, I don't think the four of us would ever get out of the hotel (preferably the hotel bar) and actually get to the "haunted" location.  We would have to first come to some conclusions about what a ghost is and what its capable of doing.  That will take some serious thinkin' and some serious drinkin'…Smile 

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

4:40 pm
April 10, 2009


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2957

And really, I don't think the four of us would ever get out of the hotel (preferably the hotel bar) and actually get to the "haunted" location. We would have to first come to some conclusions about what a ghost is and what its capable of doing. That will take some serious thinkin' and some serious drinkin' :)

Oh but the fun we would have!

Director: "Guest hunter investigation, Scene 1, Actio…..SECURITY TO THE SET!!"
Security: "Freeze…you, there, give Grant back his flashlight…you, quit fiddling with the thermal, you might accidentally set it up correctly…and you, just WHERE do you think you're going with the jar of spiders?"

Powder on the floor? An ample spread of it with multiple cameras (heck, throw IR, Thermal, and normal-light ones on it) and an independent observer is worthy of serious consideration!

Legal: The content of this post is copyrighted and is intended exclusively for use on skepticalviewer.com It may not be copied, distributed, or redisplayed on any other site without the express written consent of the author.

5:18 pm
April 10, 2009


Hannah

Texas

Lead Investigator

posts 361

Nosfer:

Oh but the fun we would have!

Director: "Guest hunter investigation, Scene 1, Actio…..SECURITY TO THE SET!!"
Security: "Freeze…you, there, give Grant back his flashlight…you, quit fiddling with the thermal, you might accidentally set it up correctly…and you, just WHERE do you think you're going with the jar of spiders?"

Powder on the floor? An ample spread of it with multiple cameras (heck, throw IR, Thermal, and normal-light ones on it) and an independent observer is worthy of serious consideration!"

Director: "Quit pulling Grant's string!" 

Gosh, do you think I could make some bucks marketing "Spirit Powder?"  Am sure Revenant could come up with a cool marketing name for it and really scientific jargon on how to use it.

Have to get guest spots to show them how to use the powder, because it is special.  Then I can pay you all consultant fees.

5:46 pm
April 10, 2009


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

Hannah said:

Gosh, do you think I could make some bucks marketing "Spirit Powder?"  Am sure Revenant could come up with a cool marketing name for it and really scientific jargon on how to use it.

Have to get guest spots to show them how to use the powder, because it is special.  Then I can pay you all consultant fees.


A name for the powder itself?  Hannah's Phantasmic Espial Micro Fine Powder….now with 30% more ghost catching ability!!!

And this goes out to everyone here…always feel free to pay me consultant fees… Wink

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

5:43 am
April 11, 2009


alicat

Guest

Hannah's "Director:  Quit pulling Grant's string!" reminds me of another post about the J&G action figures Grant said they were looking into but hadn't reallly had time to explore.  They should make a Grant "figure" (I hesitate to say doll) that has a string attached to the collar and when you pull it you get "Collargate" and Grant yelling "what the frig!".

The scenarios of GH guest shots was great and a great read.  I would also like to nominate FormerGHfan for a guest shot as well.  I have to agree with Nosfer about post-production editing so I would definitely want Nosfer to verify the experiments.

I noticed in one of the recent episodes (and the ride along post confirmed) that while driving to a local location that Jason said was about 5 minutes away from their office, in at least two scenes while Jason talking to Steve, it was bright daylight outside and yet, when you saw Steve responding to Jason, it was dark (at least dusk) with lights on in the buildings as he drove merrily along.  Very sloppy production but, they have gotten away with so many major things, continuity does not seem to be a consideration.

5:57 am
April 11, 2009


alicat

Guest

Revenant and Hannah ~

Your dream could come true.  Don't laugh – on Andy's myspace, he is selling "Spirit in a Bottle".  It's actually an empty bottle he's signed.  It costs $10 plus $5 shipping.  It's advertised as a great way to get Andy's autograph and he puts a disclaimer at the end that it does not guarantee a ghost – it's a novelty.  Hmm. . . . 

6:59 am
April 11, 2009


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2957

Good catch on the daylight/dusk discrepancies Alicat! Definitely not surprising. Those "on the way" dialogs…why do they even have the meeting at TAPS headquarters if they don't tell the gang any of the pertinent information there. Filler? Banter? Show off the Vehicle Cams?

We've seen so many goofed up things, like the time of day you mention, then there's Steve's not being consistent with a story when he's relaying it, known gaffs etc. Why should we put any more faith in the investigation itself when it is so demonstrably shown that the things are untrustworthy.

The shot in Belcourt where the cameraman was up in the orchestra loft filming Amy and Kris down below. That production crew was a LONG WAYS away from the team, filming from a a whole 'nother floor. That is unacceptable in an investigation!

Legal: The content of this post is copyrighted and is intended exclusively for use on skepticalviewer.com It may not be copied, distributed, or redisplayed on any other site without the express written consent of the author.

1:06 pm
April 14, 2009


HollyDolly

Investigator

posts 194

I think you all have some good ideas. I have checked out the site for The Ghost Club, which is a very old paranormal society founded back in the 1860s or so.I've noticed at their website and at several of the British paranormal investigative groups, they set up like on a table some flour or powder, and set on top some marbles so that if the objects move, they might leave a mark or track in the flour.

They seem to do little experiments to see if the ghosts move objects,etc.They set it up in a room and then leave and come back later to see if anything has happend.

Why Jason and Grant can't try to do something like this, I have no idea.Plus, if the batteries on the K2 or other devices were to go out, then you would still have some sort of evidence that the trigger objects moved. Just take a photo of the set up before and after.The after photo will show if the objects have been moved or not.

Reply to Post


Reply to Topic:
"Are You Here With Us?"

Guest Name (Required):

Guest Email (Required):

Smileys
Confused Cool Cry Embarassed Frown Kiss Laugh Smile Surprised Wink Yell
Post New Reply

Guest URL (required)

Math Required!
What is the sum of:
6 + 1
   



Permalink Print
Copyright 2010 SkepticalViewer.com - The Ghost Hunters Fansite for Skeptics