The Forum [is where Ancient Roman skeptics hang out.]

Current User: Guest Login Register
Please consider registering


Lost Your Password?

A Question (or two) for Everybody

Reply to Post
UserPost

8:13 pm
January 25, 2009


Icculus

Investigator in Training

posts 1

Hello Everyone,
I recently discovered this site (and the podcast), and I have to say that I'm impressed. I've always taken the results of GH's investigations with a "grain of a salt", but the debunking work and the healthy skepticism presented here is really excellent…and, to me, is exactly the type of mindset that is needed when confronting the "paranormal".

But, I do have a question or two. This is primarily directed at Stephen & Logisti, but I'd be very interested in hearing from everyone else also….it seems like there's a solid community of posters here…

Do you feel that the fakery in Ghost Hunters has existed from the very beginning? Or do you think that there was there a point in time when they were honestly presenting evidence without manipulation or deceit?

And, leaving Ghost Hunters out of the equation, what exactly is your take on "ghost phenomena" in general? Whether it actually represents spirits of the dead or something else entirely, Do you think that there's something to it that's beyond the current reductionist/materialist scientific paradigm….or is it all tricks of the mind and bunco men?

Personally, I think the guys started out legit (more or less)….but when confronted with the choice between plumbers or being tv stars, they chose the latter (to be fair, I think many people would've made the same choice had they been in the same position).
And regarding the phenomena of ghosts in general, I believe that, despite all the shenanigans going on out there, there may very well be something to it that's not presently understood by science. Not, neccesarily "spirits of the dead", but "something". And figuring out what that "something" might be is what keeps me interested.

Thanks.

10:02 pm
January 25, 2009


Stephen

San Jose, CA

Admin

posts 589

Good questions. Rather than fire off something off-the-cuff, I'm going to take a little time to come up with an answer.

Stephen the Friendly Skeptic

11:51 pm
January 25, 2009


The Doctor

Lead Investigator

posts 488

If it is true that J&G were "ghost hunting" as a hobby for 12-14 years, it makes no sense that they would begin the show by consciously fakeing evidence.

That said, even though they say they want to debunk everything, they both are starting with a belief in the paranormal and their ultimate desire must be to find evidence to back their belief, so the first temptation is to not try very hard to disprove.  

The slope goes downward from there – ignoring lines of inquiry, misusing equpment while professing  scientific knowledge, or even turning a blind eye to the blatent fakery of the production company.

As far as the basic question regarding the existence of spirits, Ghost Hunters is wasting opportunity after opportunity to actually form and attempt to prove theories as to the nature of these spirits. 

For example, J&G supposedly have full conversations with spirits via the KII "ghostphone", yet at it's most depth they are still asking questions about WHO they are rather then questions aimed at trying to understand WHAT they are.

If we can form some coherant picture of what the phenomenum is, we can search and test for it, and further refine our procedures due to results or lack of them.

… or, after 20 years of research, we can simply unscrew the cap on our flashlight.

1:25 am
January 26, 2009


AA Adams

Investigator in Training

posts 19

I have hope, not much in "media" man ( zero in anyone on TV or with a book deal) but in the supernatural. I picture some man/woman squirreled away somewhere that no one knows about making remarkable strides and doing remarkable research into the topic and no one but his/her mom knows their name. *sigh*

But I also think there is so much to our brains (and senses) that we just haven't a clue about yet and that our own powers of the mind may be responsible for a lot of the paranormal because that is what it is- outside what we scientifically know at this point about brain function and capabilities and powers. TV/film has really figured out the power of suggestion and bank on that all the time, but there is so much more. Neuroscience is a cool frontier! imo I think paranormal phenomenon will prove to be a combination of a lot of things–human supernatural (outside what we know now), other physical world stuff we know not of or understand well (chem bio phys astro etc) and possibly otherworldly supernatural.

4:47 am
January 26, 2009


dr_peter_venkman

Rochester, NY

Investigator

posts 99

Icculus said:

Do you feel that the fakery in Ghost Hunters has existed from the very beginning? Or do you think that there was there a point in time when they were honestly presenting evidence without manipulation or deceit?

And, leaving Ghost Hunters out of the equation, what exactly is your take on "ghost phenomena" in general? Whether it actually represents spirits of the dead or something else entirely, Do you think that there's something to it that's beyond the current reductionist/materialist scientific paradigm….or is it all tricks of the mind and bunco men?


Q1: No, I don't think fakery was there from the very beginning. Exaggeration? Yes.

Q2: Yes, I think there is something to the phenomena. While I've never experienced anything, I have known people that have and I do not doubt their claims. I have serious doubts about the conclusions many have drawn from their experiences. Early one night when I was 10 or 12 years old my family and I were returning from some short car trip to our rural home. As we pulled into our driveway my parents pointed out a glowing object in the sky. It was round, had a bright white center and had a glowing multi-color aura surrounding it. It made no sound and appeared to hover in the sky over a chestnut tree across the road. I watched it for a hour or so and went to bed with it still hanging in the sky. I was convinced I had seen a UFO. In the morning paper we found out that many had seen it and that it was a weather balloon. I have no reason to doubt this explanation because the object's appearance is consistent with a weather balloon in the upper atmosphere.

My point is that I saw something that at the time was inexpliciable. I think many people have had similar experiences with the "ghost phenomena". They just need to be explained.

Hee hee hee! "Get her!" That was your whole plan, huh, "get her." Very scientific.

7:57 am
January 26, 2009


Harry

Fort Mill, SC

Investigator

posts 60

I used to think the GH crew was guilty of "overenthusiastic misinterpretation" instead of willful deception. But after this past season's cavalcade of fraud, I'm now leaning toward Jay, Grant, and friends being completely bogus from the very beginning. Adults are either honest or dishonest; they are either ethical or unethical. There is no shade of gray here. The GH crew has shown this season that nothing——absolutely nothing—-they present as "evidence" can be believed absent independent verification. And, of course, they carefully avoid such independent verification.

This is no different than what happens in legitimate scientific research. If a scientist is shown to have faked data or experimental results, the entire body of that scientist's work is called into question and often discredited.

I believe there may well be some legitimate phenomena behind reported paranormal events and the field deserves serious study. But a team of investigative plumbers stumbling around in the dark with their K-II meters and digital recorders is a long, long way from a serious study of the subject. It's just entertaining television, on the same level of intellectual rigor as professional wrestling and monster truck battles. The sad part is that clowns like we see on GH, PS, GA, etc., actively discourage true scientific investigation of the paranormal.

8:24 am
January 26, 2009


Wes

Spaulding Inn, Room 38

Investigator

posts 142

I'll stand by what I said in earlier post – I think Jay and Grant and most of the TAPS members came into ghost hunting from an honest interest in the field — the need to make compelling (or at least interesting) television has forced them to move toward an emphasis finding "evidence" – no matter how dubious – with a few perfunctory debunkings thrown in. I think I was like a lot of people who were drawn to the show initially because they did seem to approach investigations from a more skeptical framework, and therefore we gave the team the benefit of the doubt. Now, the obvious hoaxings and the conflicts of interest in investigating places where they have a financial interest makes it clear that GH is just another TV show where everything must be taken with a huge grain of salt.

"The truth shall bear all light."

8:44 am
January 26, 2009


CrowTRobot

Investigator

posts 228

Judging from the first few episodes (which is really all I can do), I think J&G, while believing in the paranormal, went into each case looking for non-paranormal causes. I had the impression that they knew that most of what people thought were ghosts or spirits were nothing more than normal occurances (hot water pipes, sounds from outside, creaky floors, overactive imaginations, etc). Their MO was that once you found explainations for the occurances, what you were left with was……well, unexplainable; possibly paranormal.

No doubt that has changed.

I….I'm thinking.

9:48 am
January 26, 2009


Bobarino

Valencia, CA

Investigator

posts 181

I wont add much other than to say I agree with the previous posts.  

They went into it with the best of intentions.  Somewhere they lost their way.  Either due to the production company, SciFi wanting ratings, their own desire to keep the show on the air, or simply $$. 

I've found that being AWESOME is a full time job…

11:44 am
January 26, 2009


AA Adams

Investigator in Training

posts 19

P.S. As far as GH– IMO I just can't share in previous poster's optimism on their character. Unless I have a heart to heart with their siblings, parents, friends, neighbors, enemies, etc etc etc I have no way of knowing what J and G's character and background really are, just no way, only pure speculation. They seem to be nobodies out of nowhere and so their sincerity, expertise and motives seem to be a well kept secret, except for what THEY want to offer up.

12:18 pm
January 26, 2009


The Doctor

Lead Investigator

posts 488

I don't feel that the fakery is a coordinated effort, each of what I suspect are the participants seem to have their own methods, reasons and rational for their actions.

IMO-

Pilgrim's production people want to make the show as entertaining as possible, and simply underestimated a portion of their audience when they faked the Manson thermals. I suspect they had timestamps banned.

Grant is looking at the cash, he wants to keep it rolling in and is willing to gamble on getting caught.

Jason suspects or even knows, but rationalizes it away as being necessary to keep the interest in the paranormal up, for the income, but also to have the means to possibly stumble across some answers.

Odds are Steve does not believe in the paranormal at all. He appears to have a need to be better and smarter then those around him, and would feel good in conning the viewers. If caught, he would laugh and have a book ghost written about how simple it was to fool all the dummies.

12:47 pm
January 26, 2009


Wes

Spaulding Inn, Room 38

Investigator

posts 142

Hmmmm, Steve doesn't comes across to me as the sly, con-man type — his comment about seeing the tracks from the underground railroad, for example, his love of practical jokes, and his many phobias, to me, indicate someone who has a lot of questions and few answers — but I could be wrong.

"The truth shall bear all light."

1:16 pm
January 26, 2009


T.A.Sharps

Iowa

Investigator

posts 60

You remember how Jason used to be very very reluctant to ever call a place haunted?  And now everyother place they visit has to be haunted.

I think that says a lot.

I'm of split opinions.  On the one hand yeah they seemed more legit in the begining, there were other aspects to the show othere than J&G, the stooges, and Kris & Kris (one with the big mouth and the other with the nice ass.) 

But the other part of me can't ignore that this was a buissness deal for a TV show in the begining, and they wanted garentees.  I'm sure someone, at some time, had to consider what to do when nothing happens, and its just people walking around a house in the dark. 

And the whole thing with the Roto Rooter skits has obviously been faked since the begining.  I mean really, like they have a camera crew with them on every plumber job to catch the call. 

Not to mention all the set up shots in every show.  For instance, when they would leave a house the customer would shut the door behind them walking away, the crew filming from inside the house, supposidly staying behind with the customer.

Maybe the show didn't have high hopes in the beginning, so they were allowed to be real, then they got really populary, and were under more pressure to make a show.

Based on my observations, they started out legit, then started to hoax to keep the ball rolling.  With a skeptical suspision that the hoaxing was part of the plan (or kept in reserve) since day one.

" Your reality Sir is lies and balderdash and I am delighted to say I have no grasp of it whatsoever!"

2:57 pm
January 26, 2009


Anthon

Illinois

Investigator in Training

posts 23

Good question.  

If you do some digging into the Race Rock investigation and the chair moving, It's my opinion that they were never truly on the level. And independant of that, I agree with Harry, there's no shade of gray here. I've seen what they can produce when they don't have the ability to edit. And it isn't pretty.

Regards,

Anthon

4:53 pm
January 26, 2009


alicat

Guest

I found a posting on a website by Grant's sister (Kristina Marie Wilson) where she states she is not only a co-founder of TAPS but works on GH.  It was an older post as she mentions Brian and Donna but an interesting one.  It opened my eyes up a bit and certainly makes me think that perhaps Grant's sister might be "helping" them out (Grant's List?) since she claims to be very close to both Jason (her best friend) and her brother, Grant.  As far as I can find out though, she has not been listed on anything TAPS or GH related.  Here's the link:  http://www.quizilla.com/stories/2692917/so-you-like-the-evilville-valo-vampire-romanceand-the-ghostsinfo

5:18 pm
January 26, 2009


The Doctor

Lead Investigator

posts 488

Wes said:

Hmmmm, Steve doesn't comes across to me as the sly, con-man type —


You're right, he's more the sneak thief type   I suspect him of planting things …  he touches stuff all the time and noone really notices it anymore.

But, for example, at Clovis the papers could have been picked up and gone through, then balenced on the corner of the box. The rock could have been easily placed on top of the door awaiting enough normal vibration or breeze to make it fall .

The gate on the Star of India is first seen in a different position from when we see it begin to move – someone DID place it out of what seems to be it's normal resting spot.  HE checks the tapes — did anyone ever go back to see how it got moved out of it's initial position ? … nope

He could be setting up things like this all over … some don't work, some nobody notices, but some of them become a " hey what was that" moment.  Almost impossible to get caught when people know you keep messing with stuff.  

5:40 pm
January 26, 2009


The Doctor

Lead Investigator

posts 488

alicat said:

I found a posting on a website by Grant's sister (Kristina Marie Wilson) where she states she is not only a co-founder of TAPS but works on GH. 


Interesting … I've never known any 27 year old female writer to put "Chest: C cup" in her biographical data.

I suspect this entire story was written by a 12-13 year old male.

9:03 pm
January 26, 2009


Stephen

San Jose, CA

Admin

posts 589

Alicat– the "Grant's sister" story appears to be fan fiction. It's part of Quizilla's "stories" section.

I guess it was only a matter of time until we ran across Ghost Hunters fan fiction.

Stephen the Friendly Skeptic

10:44 pm
January 26, 2009


Queen of the Nerds

Orange County, CA

Investigator

posts 105

The Doctor said:

Interesting … I've never known any 27 year old female writer to put "Chest: C cup" in her biographical data.

I suspect this entire story was written by a 12-13 year old male.


Doctor… personally I would have put "D cup", but I am a little older than 27. Maybe its an age thing.Wink

If you believe in telekinesis, raise my hands.

Reply to Post


Reply to Topic:
A Question (or two) for Everybody

Guest Name (Required):

Guest Email (Required):

Smileys
Confused Cool Cry Embarassed Frown Kiss Laugh Smile Surprised Wink Yell
Post New Reply

Guest URL (required)

Math Required!
What is the sum of:
10 + 1
   



Permalink Print
Copyright 2010 SkepticalViewer.com - The Ghost Hunters Fansite for Skeptics