| User | Post |
|
2:31 am February 13, 2010
| Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
|
|
I'll be honest, I haven't seen all that much of GHI this season. I just…*shakes his head*…just couldn't do it. I've hit the wall. I just can't stomach the "What was THAT?" with nothing picked up on the mic and the "Did you see THAT?" with nothing picked up on video. I just needed a break. GHI just isn't as stupid as GA and not as insane as PS…so, it's not as fun to watch.
I would tune in, but only very sporadically. Here and there. But…what I am interested in was their pre-season promo for the show. It would flash the words "DEFINITE PROOF."
So…what is their "definite proof?" Have they gotten to it yet? The season finale is this Wednesday night, correct? Anything look promising on that?
I feel like I'm out of the loop. Can anyone please just kind of sum up anything that they're pushing as definite proof of the paranormal. And…do you personally agree with it? Thanks…
|
"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
|
|
|
9:56 am February 13, 2010
| Learjet
| | Australia | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1122 |
|
|
Maybe they are keeping their 40 minute interview with a ghost until the last episode for a big bang. Or not.
For me, I've given up on the crazies like GA, MH and PS. I'm still looking for evidence of a "real" ghost and I don't think I'll find it in those shows even if they ran for 100 seasons. Apart from the "did you hear/see nuthin", GHI seem to be the closest thing to being honest.
I see in the last few episodes GHI didn't come out with any EMF meter crazyness. At least that's a bonus. At this point in time I've come to the conclusion that any EMF connection to ghosts is just a willd goose chase brought on by lack of knowledge. Ditto to thermal hits.
Out of all the tools the ghost hunter groups (in general) use, my last stand is at EVP's. While I can dismiss most, I can't dismiss them all. There's some that don't qualify for radio interference (intermodulation), compression artifacts or audio pareidolia. That leaves deliberate fakes, but there's still one from a local group that I trust.
Further research is needed with EVP's IMO. I'm starting to see patterns which may be helpful in coming to further knowledge. Staying skeptical though. I really don't need to go chasing wild geese in the dark and other small red coloured fish. 
|
|
|
|
|
8:02 pm February 14, 2010
| hyacinth
| | |
| Investigator | posts 122 |
|
|
I've been watching Meterite Men and Mantracker on the Science Channel , at least they find what they go looking for.
|
|
|
10:00 pm February 14, 2010
| Learjet
| | Australia | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1122 |
|
|
Yeah meteorite men are cool.
|
|
|
|
|
11:30 am February 15, 2010
| bullerspoke
| | Sweden | |
| Investigator | posts 101 |
|
|
Well, I could start taking EVP's more seriously when ghost hunters (in general) started using reasonable recording equipment and put some controls in place. Good equipment will benefit the phenomenon greatly since we will have less artifacts from compression, crappy microphones and different filters and "enhancements". Toss away the digital dictaphones (with them the EMF-meters) or atleast buy some reasonable microphones. Then we can talk. And also one-syllable words or cut off sentences don't really cut it for me, but if controls were in place, some sort of protocol, atleast we hopefully can weed out the fakes and the misinterpretations. Like with knocks, repeatability is key.
Personally I somewhat feel towards EVP's as you do to EMF-meters, Learjet. Waving a crappy digital dictaphone in the dark is little better than waving a K2 or a Tri-Field Meter. Since most of them don't really know what either records or reacts to, it is really something of goose chase.
And again, sounds travel, sounds get distorted, a new location often have sounds investigator are unfamiliar with etc, the first priority is or should be to assess and be able to assess what isn't paranormal, before we can even start to talk about voices/sounds being allegedly paranormal.
I think people hold to much faith in their ears and therefor in EVP's. Yes, they are intriguing but so easily victims of misinterpretations. First, is it even an EVP? (Not even GH uses double recorders or any controls whatsoever) Is it not simply a voice/natural noise/animal and if so, can contamination be ruled out? Where and when was it recorded? Is there recordings from the same place that can be used for comparison? Etcetera. Simply hearing a voice on tape is really only the start, not the end of the investigation.
But still, there is of course hope, if controls were set in place, protocol was adhered to, the equipment wasn't bought at Wal-Mart and we got to hear a Q&A (and then that one repeated at a later date) where one party was not physically present, we might have moved an inch towards the paranormal. Maybe we even could assess what phenomenon we are dealing with concerning EVP's and with what we are communicating.
Personally I really have lost faith in almost all practices ghost hunters deploy EMFs, EVP's, Video, Full-spectrum this and that. And some I like them to use, they don't, or use plain wrong. I think a return to the drawing board is in order. I think to really get somewhere we need less, but higher-grade equipment, more focus on psychology (hypnagogia, suggestion etc). Less anomaly hunting and more actual investigation. The only gadgets I really think is useful in ghost hunting is an infra-sound meter and various detectors for chemical agents or gases. And then as debunk tools, since I don't really believe any equipment actually can detect or record ghosts (as in the case with EVP's some actual evidence is needed for all of them). Video cameras, cameras and recorders only real use is for documentation of interviews and experiments. A thermal camera is really only useful as a surveillance tool, to make sure the investigations site is free of intruders, bi-pedals or others.
|
When in doubt… figure it out!
|
|
|
12:56 pm February 15, 2010
| Learjet
| | Australia | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1122 |
|
|
You might be right and I may yet come to the conclusion that EVP's fit into the categories mentioned above. I'm still chewing over the data for now. I feel I need to do a little more research before reaching a verdict.
|
|
|
|
|
3:13 pm February 15, 2010
| Bobarino
| | Valencia, CA | |
| Investigator | posts 181 |
|
|
We need to remember one thing about "Ghost Hunting" in general: there is no proof they exist.
So, with that how are we supposed to record or register data? I mean, in the end, we have no way of knowing anything about the subject. There is no lab with a sample ghost we can play with.
Do they make noise? Do they have physical form? Do they radiate any heat? Do they emit EMF? etc. etc. Truth is, we know nothing.
Now, with that complete lack of knowledge, "we" decide that they radiate EMF so if the EMF detector goes off, there's a ghost. Huh!?!? We "assume" they can speak in a different frequncy than we can hear, so we use a microphone to record everything, and play it back to hear if anything was said that we didn't hear. HUH!?!?!
These are *ALL* 100% guesses with nothing to back it up. Huge leaps, IMO.
|
I've found that being AWESOME is a full time job…
|
|
|
5:20 pm February 15, 2010
| Stephen
| | San Jose, CA | |
| Admin
| posts 589 |
|
|
I'm with Revenant: I'm having a hard time getting myself to watch paranormal TV these days. Did I really expect them to come up with hard evidence for ghosts? No. But I expected some occasional variation. How the ratings stay up in the face of the sheer and utter monotony is beyond me.
I hope that the die-off of skeptics watching the show is matched by a proportional number of believers getting tired of it, but I'm not holding my breath.
|
Stephen the Friendly Skeptic
|
|
|
9:28 am February 16, 2010
| bullerspoke
| | Sweden | |
| Investigator | posts 101 |
|
|
Very true, Bobarino. The biggest flaw with EVP's (and other techniques) is the assumption that ghosts exist and communicate via EVP's, either they produce aduio or some "ethereal" imprint on the recording media. A flaw that is rarely addressed by believers. As a skeptic you soon find that the very basic premises of ghost hunting is flawed, a realisation that is not always easy to swallow and even causes some grief. That is probably why many believers turn to self-delusion and ambiguity. Without any actual answers only presumptions adjusted to fit the narrative (there is a theory that… etc), the tough questions never has to be asked.
Still, what we have is what we can measure, and for better or worse that is the place we have to start. Unexplained voices on tape need to be better explained, and not be a pillar for pseudoscience. In short, we need less anomalies. Even if it is a fool's errand getting ghost hunters to use better equipment (and other equipment) it could lead to less anomalies and ambigious "hits", and perhaps less fakery. What is hidden in the "snow" of crappy recorders is largely revealed when using proper equipment.
In short, we can't measure ghosts, so let's start with what we can measure. Sounds, infra-sounds, chemicals, gases etc. Add to that some actual knowledge in psychology and we are getting somewhere. After filtering the crap, we might end up with something of interest, with actual merit. However I fear in the end what we are left with are anecdotes en masse. But perhaps also a better understanding of why and how people come to (allegedly) experience and believe in ghosts. If there is environmental factors, cultural factors, psychological factors etc. In fact, to some degree the belief itself and alleged experiences is a more interesting subject, than hunting the ghosts themselves.
|
When in doubt… figure it out!
|
|
|
1:01 pm February 16, 2010
| Learjet
| | Australia | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1122 |
|
|
bullerspoke said:
In short, we can't measure ghosts, so let's start with what we can measure. Sounds…
Did that and got an EVP lol. 
I know, there's some pretty big common sense hurdles that EVP's fail to jump. Why so short? When alive some people can talk the hind legs off a donkey, yet when it's evp time there's some 1 syllable mutter. I want the 40 minute interview.
They seem to say silly things that don't relate to anything in EVP's.
30 people can listen to the same EVP and get 30 different translations. (ghosts really need to learn how to use international phonetics)
Exactly how do they get on the recorder in the first place if they are not sound?
I had some other thoughts but I'm nodding off at the keyboard here so have to continue later….
|
|
|
|
|
11:04 pm February 16, 2010
| The Doctor
| | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 488 |
|
|
bullerspoke said:
Well, I could start taking EVP's more seriously when ghost hunters (in general) started using reasonable recording equipment and put some controls in place. Good equipment will benefit the phenomenon greatly since we will have less artifacts from compression, crappy microphones and different filters and "enhancements".
If I recall, Barry came up with some kind of super mike that was going to give us the directions of the sounds it recorded, and last season Jason was playing with some super expensive music quality recorder he obtained.
It appears that quality equpment and ghost huntig just don't go together – could explain why the production cameras and the B reel crew don't catch anything.
|
|
|
1:02 pm February 17, 2010
| bullerspoke
| | Sweden | |
| Investigator | posts 101 |
|
|
The thing about equipment in ghost hunting is that they don't really know how to use what they already got. Jason's and Barry's dabblings leave me little impressed (although the 360 seems to catch less crap).
Putting DAT's or semi-professional harddrive recorders with good quality microphones in their hands without training is not a good idea. Microphones are not like ears and record everything equally, and good mic-handling is something of a craft.
Actually, if I was to investigate with proper equipment, I would not record without listening at the same time, just as I don't record a radio interview without headphones. There might be fans or whatever interfering on the interview, that I don't hear unless i listen through the equipment. Hearing how the environment sounds through the equipment goes along way to identify different sounds and furthermost to how some sound gets distorted when the ears don't filter them.
I would walk through the location prior to investigation, with two microphones on a boom(?), listening to the place through the equipment (two recorders of course) via headphones and get a feel for how the place sounds and identify the sources of different sounds or what might give of sounds. Preferably I would work in pair with someone with some training that could carry and listen to the other recorder and microphone. Then I (or we) would try to record EVP's and other anomalous sounds, abiding to a preset protocol, without direct connection to any claims or stories. If I hear something, I will not stray, but ask the preset questions.
Then I would compare the pre-recordings with the investigation-recordings, to identify similar sounds and of course sounds that stands ut on the investigation. I would then put the raw material up for peer-review. Then I would compare my notes with my peer-reviewers notes. If there is something we all heard and that I/we cannot identify as environmental or human, we have an anomaly. But one recorded using controls that leaves out many sources of faults.
If I were to get intelligible and intelligent answers repeatedly, I would of course repeat the experiment, first without changing the questions and only if I get answers like three investigations in a row, I will change the questions to get new answers. Repeatability is key as always.
Yep, that is a buttload of work, and a lot of equipment to carry, but if you want to know anything with reasonable certainty you have to work for it.
Wouldn't be much of a show though. 
So I'm game to try what EVP's are worth, but until I get the actual chance myself to conduct a thorough experiment or anyone does an experiment that holds some water, I remain skeptical, if not dismissive.
|
When in doubt… figure it out!
|
|
|
12:42 am February 21, 2010
| JM
| | |
| Guest
| |
|
|
Let's not also forget the other elephant in the room….
Their use of white noise machines when recording EVPs. In the earlier seasons of Ghost Hunters they did occasionally have an "up-to-speed in case you never watched da show b4" type blurb for it, even.
It went something like "The white noise machines provide the entities with sound energy to manipulate, and thus, facilitate the formulation of EVPS."
They dropped this particular "how it works" thingy pretty quick, of course. The "cold spot", "battery drain" "fear cage", and all that other crud still remain, though.
With the exception of the "fear cage" concept, which has some modicum of scientific validity, I find those sessions more than a little Goebbels-esque….in that "If you tell a lie often enough, and loud enough, eventually people belief it without question" sense. I think they've finally stopped running it, but their little infoblurb for the FLIR thermal camera was….really bad.
"It helps us detect cold spots…"
When it can only detect the temperatures of solid surfaces. Vaporous and/or airborne temp fluctuations do not show up on FLIR.
|
|
|
1:14 am February 21, 2010
| The Doctor
| | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 488 |
|
|
Thought you might be interested in GHI's latest toy – oops, the ad even says -
Note ! These Ghost Detectors really work. They are not toys and should be used with adult supervision.
http://www.abateelectronics.com/prghost.html
Looks like about $3 worth of parts to me.
|
|
|
5:18 am February 21, 2010
| bullerspoke
| | Sweden | |
| Investigator | posts 101 |
|
|
Yes, any white noise generators is of course a reason to invalidate anything caught audio-wise, although I'm not clear on whether GH uses them or not. Can't say I've seen them around lately. It is not unlike GH to drop or include equipment without telling about it, like the K2 which suddenly appeared even though it was implicitly mocked in the Manson Episode.
As for the "fear cage", it has no scientific validity. Yes, electro-magnetic field is something science can measure, but that's about all science has to say on the matter. Any effects, like the ones Grant again and again and again and again keep passing of as the truth, has no basis in science.
|
When in doubt… figure it out!
|
|
|
8:35 am February 21, 2010
| Learjet
| | Australia | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1122 |
|
|
The Doctor said:
Thought you might be interested in GHI's latest toy – oops, the ad even says -
Note ! These Ghost Detectors really work. They are not toys and should be used with adult supervision.
http://www.abateelectronics.com/prghost.html
Looks like about $3 worth of parts to me.
These have been around for a while. It's just a tri-axis EMF meter with a 60 Hertz notch filter.
What a pathetic grab for the market to call them a ghost detector.
Definition of toy – a play thing for children. ( http://ardictionary.com/Toy/5538 )
Definition of child – one who exhibits the characteristics of a very young person…. limited understanding, etc. ( http://thinkexist.com/dictionary/meaning/child/ )
A play thing for those with limited understanding suits it nicely. Therefore it is indeed a TOY. A money making toy. 
Now, how do I get in on the action. I could be rich!   
|
|
|
|