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3:37 am
December 5, 2010
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Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Post edited 3:40 am – December 5, 2010 by Revenant
We began discussing this episode in another thread, but really…it should have it's own…so…here it is.
skeptiCat said this:
It's interesting, I'll give it that. I'll break it down into what I do like and what I don't like:
What I Like – If you don't think about too much, it looks spooky.
What I Don't Like:
1) At first, the "hand portion" confused me. I originally thought the image, like skepiCat said, was Nick with a camera in his hand. But at 1:37 and a close-up at 1:45 you can see that the image isn't solid. It's kind of a weird segregated thing. Noticing the light shining down on my table and floor, I began moving my own hand in different positions. After making a bunny and a duck…I was able to replicate the shape rather easily. Simply hold your hand like you're holding a baseball and move it around a bit and eventually you'll find the angle that will give you that exact shape.
2) How did Daryl see the shadow? If the room is "blacked out"…there is no light. You can't get blacker than black. We see the shadow because we're watching it with a night vision camera. So…either the room wasn't completely dark or Daryl is either a cyborg or a witch. Either way…he should be destroyed immediately…
3) Let's pretend that Daryl did see the shadow. Either Daryl has the steel nerves of Dirty Harry or the reaction time of a dead cat. You're in a small room trying to contact the dead…and you see a shadow. What do you do? Well…you just kind of stand there. Instead of…jumping a bit. Uttering some sort of noise due to shock. Maybe quickly turn around to see what moved in front of the light source (how shadows in the real world are made…). Or…turn, scream like a little girl and run out of the room like you just saw a brick on some wires. But…we get none of this. Daryl just calmly leaves AFTER being notified that Zak and Erin saw something. THAT'S when Daryl makes his move…not before.
4) Lastly…we have no continuous shot of the event. Watch the video again. It is heavily edited. There is no way to know or prove that someone other than Daryl was in that room at that given moment. We literally see three seconds of footage. It could have been taken when Nick was setting up the camera at the beginning of Daryl's stay there. We have no reference point.
Ok, so…that's what I think of the video. Does anyone find the video interesting?
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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1:57 am
December 6, 2010
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Ghaleon
| | Hazard, KY | |
| Investigator | posts 176 |
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Daryl claiming to see the shadow makes no sense what so ever. If the room is pitch black then how can he see a shadow? The only possible way is if there is another light source in the room that we are not made aware of because of the IR. I'm taking it that these are just stationary cameras in the room with him since they claim he is all alone. I didn't see the whole episode so I thought at first Nick was in the room with him. I would want to see all other angles available of this scene. As soon as it happens it cuts to the camera behind Daryl so we just see the projection from one angle.
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Pain is weakness leaving the body!!!
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11:25 am
December 6, 2010
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blinddog
| | Special Agent Zombie Elimination Agency | |
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Post edited 11:28 am – December 6, 2010 by blinddog
……and this different how from shadows seen in the dark on GH, GHI, GHA, DT, MH, PS, etc., etc., etc.
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Double tap to the head. Don't become Undead.
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2:02 pm
December 6, 2010
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Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Post edited 2:04 pm – December 6, 2010 by Revenant
Post edited 2:06 pm – December 6, 2010 by Revenant
Post edited 2:08 pm – December 6, 2010 by Revenant
blinddog said:
……and this different how from shadows seen in the dark on GH, GHI, GHA, DT, MH, PS, etc., etc., etc.
I know. It gets frustrating analyzing the same thing week after week, month after month, year after year. GH…shadow-chasing with Britt. GHI…Robb talking about shadows when his camera shows nothing. GHA…does this show even count? DT…idiotic FLIR images/shadows without investigation. MH…shadows…throwing rocks? PS…demons in the shadows possessing people. What have we learned from all these shows? Shadows are spooky. Great. Thanks for that. I'm sure that will be the cover story for Scientific American next month…
At least this shadow is on video. It is a tangible piece of possibly paranormal evidence that can be critically examined. When we do this, the video begins to fall apart. And speaking of that…I forgot to mention something in my original post. So here's it is:
5) In point #3, I only spoke of Daryl's reaction. I still stand by that, but I failed to mention the reactions of Zak and Erin. The more that I thought about it, the more puzzling it became. What would your reaction be to seeing something mysterious on camera while watching your human "bait" try to communicate with the dead? You would be excited right? You would probably communicate with Nick and tell him to get other there as quickly as possible. You would most likely leave your location and sprint over there. Something supposedly paranormal is going on. After all, as I joked about in the same paragraph, these are the same guys who saw something supposedly paranormal, screamed and ran like little school children. They over-react to the smallest and most frivolous things.
What is their response? Calmly relating to Daryl that they see a "mist" or something near him. And…that's pretty much it. No excitement. No yelling. No fist-pumping. Nothing. Is this typical of the GA crew? Not in the least. Odder still…Nick is never contacted. He is never sent over there to check it out. Why?
The more I think about this…the more that I don't like it. Here is some speculation and ONLY speculation: Nick is setting up things for Daryl. At command control, Zak and/or Erin see some shadows on the wall made by Nick. Much later, Zak tells Daryl that he saw something in the room (knowing that he could splice that footage of the shadow in during editing). Daryl scares himself, right on que, and walks off, again…right on que. This scenario makes sense to me. This is why Zak and Erin are not excited and yelling when they see the shadow. This is why Nick is not contacted and sent over there. This is also why Daryl doesn't react to anything because nothing was there to react to…and only gets spooked AFTER he's told. Again…just speculation. I have NO proof of this. But…it does seem somewhat logical based upon their past experiences and actions, doesn't it?
EDIT: I couldn't get the spacing right for some reason. Weird. So…not changing the content, only the format.
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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2:16 pm
December 6, 2010
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Ghaleon
| | Hazard, KY | |
| Investigator | posts 176 |
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Your theory does make sense Revenant. Usually these guys are yelling something like "Dude, Oh my God, DUDE!!!!" but we don't get that reaction from them which is rather odd. In past experiences with them using bait they go crazy and start yelling dude every few seconds and they want to rewind the footage at least 3 times to recheck it. In this instance we get the shadow. We get a very calmly spoken "Jesus Christ, what the hell was that?". Then we get an even calmer Zak saying that they saw a "mist" or something. There is no energy is in his voice and I guess what little energy he had when he first reacted had disappeared in this 2 second gap. They in turn scare Daryl (as was mentioned also by Revenant) who then gets way to antsy to get out of there, fast. Him claiming to have seen it later makes this case hold even less water. We get a very uninspired "did you see that response", bait gets scared and leaves, then claims to have seen the shadow with his own eyes in a pitch black room. I guess if one person can see it and be a witness, then everyone has to claim to have seen it first hand and be a witness. I guess Daryl feared being left out of the Triad of the Dudes Orginization.
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Pain is weakness leaving the body!!!
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2:13 am
December 8, 2010
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Reasonably Moderate
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Great post. You've outlined the very things that we've looked at on our blog, but there are major differences. We have a contributor with a background in videography, and we weren't able to pinpoint any gaps in the video coverage. We don't mention it in our review (perhaps we should have), but we believe it's possible that, given the camera's proximity to the wall, that the LED screen on the camera was turned forward (a common practice to set up shots properly in tight spaces). This would provide low-level light.
We thought that it could be Nick's shadow too, but as we can see from Nick's shadow in other shots, his loose t-shirt sleeves are easily discernable. This shadow has no distinctive clothing lines.
We also have a contributor with a cold-reading (based on body language) background. They studied Daryl's body language throughout the episode, and actually found him to have quite nervous gestures. Notice his twitching fingers and the way he covers his neck/upper chest. These are classic signs of anxiety and a desire for protection. We don't think those reactions are easily faked (though it's not entirely out of the realm of possibilities).
Anyhow, we found this post while looking for some other answers to this shadow, and thought we'd weigh in. We are baffled, but reluctant to call it a hoax. Here's our review if you want to see more of our take from the videography side: http://reasonablymoderateskept…..-fort-erie
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1:28 pm
December 8, 2010
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Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Hello Reasonably Moderate and welcome to the site.
I don't have a great deal of time at the moment so I will address some of your concerns and your blog much later tonight or possibly tomorrow. Sorry…real life can be like that sometimes…
But…I won't leave empty-handed…
In the original post in this thread is a link to GA's Shadow video on Youtube. Pull up two of them and size them up to go side by side. The one on the left, we'll call "Clip A." Go to time index 1:16. Then go to your other one on the right, which will be "Clip B." Go to time index 1:26.
Clip A shows Daryl alone in the room before the shadow. Clip B shows Daryl and the shadow dancing on the wall. Notice anything different about the two clips? If you said the angle is different…you get 20 Rev points. In Clip B…you see much more of the doorway on the right (where the shadow is) as opposed to Clip A. The camera has moved slightly to the right and ever so slightly tilted upwards. If the camera is stationary…why would the angle between the two clips be different?
We have no proof or evidence that Clip B actually follows Clip A in real time. Clip B still could have been shot first while Nick was setting up the camera and simply edited in after Clip A to show a paranormal event. Daryl would not have been aware of any wrong-doing or hoaxing in this scenario. After all, Daryl couldn't see the shadow anyway (if he did…he certainly didn't react to a shadow being a mere three feet away from him).
So…if Clip A is a continuous shot into Clip B, as GA would like us to believe…then…how did the angle on a stationary camera change? Of course…unless the ghost did it… 
Ok…just something to mull over. Again, sorry for the delay Reasonably Moderate. I will definitely get back with you…
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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6:25 pm
December 8, 2010
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Reasonably Moderate
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EXCELLENT catch! We had been reviewing the clips for continuity closer to the event itself, probably wrapped up in the clarity of the shadow. It is entirely possible that set-up was still occuring, which yes–if that's the case, then something was not shown to us in chronological order (re: Nick). Still, we believe (due to the way the shadow doesn't match others in the room and room coverage) that if a person were there, they'd have to be in the shot with Daryl. Unless there is a revolving wall hiding a place for someone to be, we don't think anyone would fit. Which would leave us with the unfortunate option of having to look into a hoax. An instance like this could be manufactured digitally, but would require a lot of additional post-production work (and therefore, add to the cost of production). Again, we'd still need definitive proof of that. All in all, for both answers we'd need to see everything that happened off camera.
I (the main writer) am going to bring this back to our videographer to analyze. We may amend our review in the future. Thank you for the welcome and for pointing that out so clearly!
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2:03 am
December 9, 2010
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Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Post edited 2:10 am – December 9, 2010 by Revenant
Post edited 2:11 am – December 9, 2010 by Revenant
Ok…let's see if we can shed a little light on this one.
Reason M. (and yes…I shortened the name…write a thousand posts and you can do that too… ) said: "Still, we believe (due to the way the shadow doesn't match others in the room and room coverage) that if a person were there, they'd have to be in the shot with Daryl." Also, from his/her blog that has already been linked: "We compared shadows, noticing how Daryl’s shadow was tall and diffused, while this figure is short and sharp. The figure would have to be very close to the wall to produce this shadow."
I respectfully disagree. The figure does not have to be very close to the wall to produce the shadow. Not only can I explain why…but…I can prove it.
When one looks at the video, one instantly begins to examine the clarity of the shadow and also begins to work some geometry to figure out how close someone would have to be. And 99 times out of 100, I'd be right there with you. But…this is the one where you can't. If you do this, you are basing what you know of shadows provided that a person is passing in front of a normal light source, like a flashlight, in a relatively dark room and seen with the naked eye. This situation is much, much different. We now have to think in terms of a person passing in front of a strong IR light source in a completely dark room and seen with a night vision camera. What changes? The length of the shadows and how dark they are.
We have seen a ton of this over the years. In the video that we've been using (link in first post of this thread), go to time index 1:08. We see Nick standing in a room. Notice his shadow? Nice, crisp, and very dark. Much like the mysterious shadow that we see (keep this image of Nick handy for something else as well…). Now, notice the distance that Nick is from the wall. Nick is as least twice as far from the wall as Daryl is in his scene. This shows, without a doubt, that someone BEHIND Daryl could cast that shadow. The person would not have to be close to the wall.
But…how could Nick have cast that shadow? Glad you asked…
Look at the entire video clip again and take a good look at that Kitchen from an IR lighting perspective. For some reason, that room is lit up like Xmas! For example, check out time index 0:37. There seem to be at least two IR lights here. One is pointed and hits the end of the axe. There's another hitting that back wall, to the right of the axe. Switch to time index 1:26 (the back view of Daryl) and we see another IR light source aimed right at his back and there seems to be another one somewhere pointed at the bottom of the column in between the two doorways. What that one is aimed at…no clue. How many IR light sources are in that room? I'm not sure, but it seems at least four. Maybe more.
They really lit this room up. For those that have been following this show from the start…that, on to itself, is highly unusually. Could Nick have stepped in front of one of those lights for a moment? Quite possible. But…how do we know that it's Nick? Glad you asked…
Reason M. maintains that the shadow is not Nick since there is no distinctive clothing lines due to his loose t-shirt. I believe that this is all in the perspective. If you kept that time index 1:08 shot handy…pull it up. Look at Nick's shadow on the wall. It's somewhat similar to the shadow seen near Daryl. When we look at the shadow near Daryl, it looks like the "person" is moving to their left. So, we are just assuming that we are seeing the right arm of the person/ghost/shadow. Now…look at Nick again. Notice that he is somewhat turned towards the IR light source and his LEFT arm is out. That is what is making the shadow on the wall. If we turn back to the shadow near Daryl…isn't it reasonable to assume that if Nick is standing with his right shoulder to the IR light and has his left arm out…the loose t-shirt sleeve would not cast a shadow. It would essentially be on Nick's dark side.
Lastly…but how do we explain the width of the shadows arm which looks much thicker than Nicks? Glad you asked…
Nick is a thin guy. When his forearm is turned flat and close to the IR light, it might look much thicker than it actually is. Now go to time index 1:35. You see that chicken wing? (I'm not ragging on Nick…maybe Santa will give Nick a membership to a gym…). That could definitely be Nick bringing his forearm into his bicep (kind of in a wrapping up a cord kind of motion). Zak and Erin's arms are too big to emulate that chicken wing. Only Nicks arms are that slim to cause that sharp of an angle.
Alright…so…there you go. Do I think the hoax was planned? No. I've been watching this show from the start and these guys definitely aren't that bright. But…they are opportunistic. I still maintain that during the set-up of the scene, Zak may have seen that shadow and knew exactly what to do with it and how to make the most of it. So does that make it a hoax? Yes. Passing a normal event as something paranormal when you know that it isn't…is inherently dishonest. Can I prove it? Not in the least. I've done all that I can. The only way to prove it is to get our hands on the raw footage…and something tells me that Santa isn't dropping that off in my stocking anytime soon.
Ok…so, there we go…questions, comments, profanity-filled rants?
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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2:27 am
December 9, 2010
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Ghaleon
| | Hazard, KY | |
| Investigator | posts 176 |
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Post edited 2:29 am – December 9, 2010 by Ghaleon
I didn't notice the first few times I watched the video that there is 2 open doorways behind Daryl to his left. There is at least 2 IR lights that are brightly illuminated right by these doors, so if anybody even so much as lets part of their arm dangle in the doorway it would make a shadow projection. Revenant is correct in what he is saying about IR lights being different when casting shadows then a regular flashlight or such aimed at a wall. I just don't understand why they keep playing it off that Daryl saw it. How could he have possibly seen a shadow in a pitch black room full of IR cams?
EDIT- I just noticed someone mentioned on the youtube page that the camera angle changes from the 1:16 mark to the 1:36 mark. Could be nothing but you can tell the difference.
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Pain is weakness leaving the body!!!
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2:38 am
December 9, 2010
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Reasonably Moderate
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Your detailed post is definitely applaud-worthy, and you bring up some fantastic points. Our analysis is mostly based upon the art of video, so we understand a bit about camera placement, lighting, etc. which is why we frequently mention it. Nick being there is entirely possible. However, we still feel that he'd have to be standing on camera to be seen. The room appears very tiny – we just can't place where Nick (or whomever) could actually stand without being on the camera that caught the shadow at the time of the shadow. (Hence why we tried to find pictures of the kitchen from tourists online). The other part we don't like about the crispness of the unidentified shadow is that Daryl's does not match. The shadows should be consistent if the source is in the room. If there were space behind Daryl, off camera, the unidentified shadow should be similar to Daryl's. I don't think this will be laid to rest until we see the exact layout of the room and play with the shadows and angles ourselves. Still, you have our minds going on this one, and we agree wholeheartedly about the raw footage. It's unfortunate, because it's hard to do much more than speculate as to what happened off camera.
Thank you for the intellectual conversation! It's not easy to find online, especially when it comes to topics like these.
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2:04 pm
December 9, 2010
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Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Ghaleon said:
EDIT- I just noticed someone mentioned on the youtube page that the camera angle changes from the 1:16 mark to the 1:36 mark. Could be nothing but you can tell the difference.
Hmmm…someone mentioned it on Youtube? You mean…after I outlined it in post #7…which was posted before the person on Youtube? You know…just sayin'… :P (Hmmm…we still need a "sticking out tongue" smiley icon, don't we?)
Reasonably Moderate – Thanks for the kind words. And really, I should thank you. It's been a while since I dove into GA so hardcore. Typically too much nonsense, faked events (which there is video evidence of), yelling, and craziness to really consider. Yet, it's always good to get a little dirty and dig in the dirt…
As for the intellectual conversation…that's what we shoot for here at SV. Of course, sometimes we miss the mark, but typically we can bring up a couple of good points. You should consider joining up (after choosing a much shorter name… ). And if not, the best of luck to you and your blog. I've checked it out and noticed that you already crossed off Paranormal State. A wise move. That show is what I like to call "a bunch of crazy." GA is fun to watch. PS…is generally insulting and can hurt people. I cannot believe that it's still on the air.
Oh…and lastly. I thought that I read that you and your friends might be going to this Fort and maybe do a bit of recreating? If so, good luck with that as well. It would be very difficult due to the number and location of IR lights in that room. I'm still uncertain of way they lit the room and why they did it that way. Very unusual…even for them…
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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2:21 pm
December 9, 2010
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skeptiCat
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I totally agree with Rev's comments about their lack of enthusiasm not fitting the story line at. Zak is suppose to watching what is going on in the 'control room' on pretty good monitors, yet all he reports seeing is a 'myst'? Not movement or a shadow, but a myst…from the guys who see myst out of nothingness? They never go in to check out the room themselves? Something just ain't right-lol.
Maybe they got tired of no one else being able to see the myst so when they came accross this great accidental shot from during set up or something, they edited it in.
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6:00 pm
December 9, 2010
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Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Reasonably Moderate said:
The other part we don't like about the crispness of the unidentified shadow is that Daryl's does not match. The shadows should be consistent if the source is in the room. If there were space behind Daryl, off camera, the unidentified shadow should be similar to Daryl's.
Doh!…I missed this part.
Daryl's shadow doesn't match? What shadow of Daryl are you referring to? If you can please view the video and give me a time at which I can see for myself, that would be great.
Something just ain't right-lol. ~ skeptiCat
Yes…it's one of those that the more that you look at it, the more that things just don't add up. There is weirdness around every corner…then again, with GA…what's new?
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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6:25 pm
December 9, 2010
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Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
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Very first part of the video when Daryl is doing the EVP session. The axe has a VERY distinct and sharp black shadow on the wall. Daryl's is much fainter. This is an example where two shadows in the same frame are VERY different. I suspect that the wall behind Daryl may have a second IR hitting it, thus washing out his shadow. Or each shadow is being influenced by a different IR source which differ in intensity/quality between each other. All I have is the youtube clip to go off of since I haven't seen this on the "big screen" where I have some controls over it and can see the full context.
I do not see Daryl' shadow in the same scene as the clawed-hand shadow, but even if we did, the difference between the axe handle's and Daryl's shadow in the other scene shows how multiple IR sources can wash and play havoc with shadows cast at the same time by two objects that are in different positions..
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7:08 pm
December 9, 2010
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Nosfer
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Post edited 7:13 pm – December 9, 2010 by Nosfer
Correction, there IS a shadow of Daryl on the same wall as the mystery shadow. It's very faint and appears to be his shoulder casting a shadow over the dark window(?) right at his right shoulder.
1:35 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..05gbdehnjE
At that same timestamp, you can see what is probably the head of the shadow figure above the right-most dark rectangle. If you look at 1:50 in the same clip, you can see that dark rectangle as being fairly near the wall that has the axe shadow. This tells me that Daryl is quite a ways out from the wall that the axe shadow is cast upon, and that there COULD be room for a person standing to right of the camera and not be captured by it. Is the only IR the one on the camera or is there a filler IR also being used?
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Legal: The content of this post is copyrighted and is intended exclusively for use on skepticalviewer.com It may not be copied, distributed, or redisplayed on any other site without the express written consent of the author.
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1:42 am
December 10, 2010
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Ghaleon
| | Hazard, KY | |
| Investigator | posts 176 |
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My bad Revenant, I completely forgot that I had seen that information on your post as well. I think the FoF drinking games are getting the best of me.
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Pain is weakness leaving the body!!!
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1:00 am
December 11, 2010
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Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Ghaleon said:
My bad Revenant, I completely forgot that I had seen that information on your post as well. I think the FoF drinking games are getting the best of me.
Absolutely no worries. I'm not being graded on this, it isn't going on my resume, and it won't be apart of my new feature film "Revenant VS The Mummy!" I just thought it was funny…
Nosfer- I'm right there with you with the position of Daryl and there being room for Nick (or another person) to cast a shadow from the right. You asked about a "filler IR" being used. I think so. It's hard to tell. In fact, I'm very uncertain if the configuration of the IR lights don't change somewhere along the line. I'm also uncertain if the shots of Daryl are in chronological order. Were lights added or moved along the way and/or during the set-up? I think so…but again…so hard to tell.
And speaking of weird IR lighting, I watched a bit of tonight's show (Axe murder in Iowa…I forget the name) and noticed that somewhere along the line, they are using wayyy more IR lights. There's a scene with Erin in the cellar. There are at least four IR lights in just that room. It looks like the GA crew found a fire sale on IR lights…because they seem to have a truckload now…
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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10:01 am
December 13, 2010
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Learjet
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Sorry I'm late, I only just got to watch this episode. Not that I have anything useful to add to the bizarre shadow-gate video that Revenant has analysed. Well done.
On Daryl's reaction, personally, I'm not keen on reading too much into this. It's dark, he likely didn't see it that well and didn't know what to make of it. Some people freeze with fear, some run. I've done both! (Not at the same time lol)
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