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When is a Dream not a Dream?

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12:42 pm
July 1, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2956

Well I mostly wanted to get this one started before any of us got caught up in anything else and forgot! I chose this category to start the thread in because lucid dreaming is not quite "everyday" Not "the norm" Para, if you will, Normal….

I will start by saying that could remember dreams from early on, and in fact still remember some of them. By early on, I'm talking crib days. An example being one where I was convinced trains were trying to get into my room. I'm even pretty certain I know what caused that dream for we had visited the Smithsonian and I can still picture some green steam locomotive engine.

Of course, at that age I (and most humans) are unable to differentiate between dreams and being awake. Thus why even after waking up I was convinced a train was trying to get me!

Later on I would have dreams where it seemed like I had not gone to sleep at all, but was rather in my room playing. Given that this seemed to go on all night it was a much longer duration than a typical dream. And it repeated…not the exact actions, but the scene. It was about this time I first recall the "cotton candy" effect in some of my sleeping moments.

As time went on, I was presented with a Library Card, and I began my research…or what would pass for research for a kid my age :) Hey, it was still more in-depth than copying notes onto a "Big Ben" tablet!

There were many things on what dreams meant, symbolism, things like that. It didn't really hold my interest. At some point I came across a chapter on dreams where you know you are dreaming. It sparked my interest. The part about being able to control your dream, _change_ your dream to whatever you wanted was what really caught my attention.

I had already changed the dream environment a few times before, though I don't recall being conscious that it was a dream at the time. It was more a way for me to escape whatever creature (or train?) was pursuing me at the time.

Key to things, it seemed, was learning to recognize that you were in a dream in the first place. To do that, you had to become familiar with your dreams. I started keeping a separate journal of what I dreamed so as to be able to recognize them for what they were. Over time I could remember more and more of them.

I shall skip a bit to another thing that I read pertaining to lucid dreaming. Triggers. Ways of prompting yourself and making yourself realize that you are in a dream state rather than a waking state. And here is where I learned that I was different than many of the "textbook" dreamers that I was reading about.

(And since this is a thread that is going to continue for a while, I suspect, and in the spirit of all these recent ghost hunting shows, cue the dramatic music and it's time for our first commercial break) :)

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8:24 am
July 3, 2010


Stephen

San Jose, CA

Admin

posts 589

I've managed to go lucid a few times. The tricky part is to keep the dream going. Normally I wake up soon after going lucid. Or, more likely, my going lucid is part of an atypical wake-up process. The lucidity comes from the fact that I'm waking up anyway, I suspect.

For some reason, written information is never stable for me in dreams. If there's a poster on the wall, it will change every time I look at it. If I'm with it enough to realize I'm dreaming, then I can use this to go lucid. If not, I'll come up with some random in-dream explanation for the changing text ("oh, wow, I didn't realize e-paper had gotten that advanced") and move on.

Stephen the Friendly Skeptic

10:31 am
July 3, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2956

That's one of the areas I found myself "different" Look away, look back, and if it's different, you're dreaming. Look at it and, if it changes or makes no sense, you're dreaming.

Not the case with me. Sometimes very clear, readable text. Look away, look back, same message, same text. Different language? Yes, sometimes, but I can translate it and it stays the same.

This turned out to be a useless dream-trigger-test for me lol For me it then became a situation of recognizing my dreams by key things that happened or dreams that repeated (not the exact same dream but a theme) For example, one thing I noticed was a repeated type of dream where I was on my way to take a test (usually math) but had not been to class for most the semester and had the sense of doom. I then would try to trigger off the type of dream.

Keeping yourself lucid is a key, sometimes it happens and drops right back into regular dream state or sometimes it happens and I wake up. Spinning fast is supposed to keep you lucid but that has never worked for me.

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12:11 pm
July 3, 2010


Leslie

Investigator

posts 157

Most of my dreams these days are lucid dreams. It seems that as I have gotten older, my ability to recognise and controll my dreams has increased. In fact, it has become so common for me, that one of my new favorite things to do is to NOT control the dream. Once i realize that I'm dreaming, I'm aware that whatever happens is not real, and I choose to let it play out. I find it interesting to 'observe' how the dream progresses without my 'choosing' to change the outcome. This is not always easy to do if the dream is a very frightening one. I had one dream where I was in a situation where I knew I was going to die -but I knew it was a dream, so I decided to let it play out to see if I could 'feel' what it was like to die. Unfortunately, I was awakend by some rowdy people outside my window before it could happen. After giving them a piece of my mind, I tried to go back to sleep and pick up where I left off, but no luck!

7:54 pm
July 3, 2010


Learjet

Australia

Lead Investigator

posts 1122

Text does change for me when I look away then back, as does digital clock time. Though these days I don't need dream tests. I either just know or I don't.

I'm the opposite of Leslie. I'm getting a lot less lucid lately. A pity as I want to conduct more experiments with the dream characters. I think these beta blockers for migraines are the culprit.

Do you guys get a mixture of different intelligences in dream characters? Some of the people in my dreams have no brain when confronted, they are just space fillers. If I question them they just act dumb, where others are more verbal and some highly intelligent.

OD'd on EMF

8:07 am
July 4, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2956

Learjet said:

Text does change for me when I look away then back, as does digital clock time.

Do you guys get a mixture of different intelligences in dream characters? Some of the people in my dreams have no brain when confronted, they are just space fillers. If I question them they just act dumb, where others are more verbal and some highly intelligent.


Okay, that's at least two confirmations of changing text…which was what I have encountered in most of the books I've read, and counter to my own experiences. I've seen signs in my dream in a certain place, will experience some other scenes, and come back to that area and the text is still the same. Weird!

Characters in my normal dreams are classified into two types. Main characters and extras. The extras are just there, they may be doing something but they are like "people on the street" vs the main characters who might be like the person walking with you through the street.

Same with objects, even, at least in the case of normal dreams. The object or building that is key or important in the dream is a bit more substantive whereas the others are more cardboardy.

And speaking of which, I have recorded a few different levels of dream vividness. At the lower end are the very flat (what I call cardboardy) types where things and people are rather non-descript. My focus in the dream is often quite "tunnel-like" These are often ones where it's like I'm an observer rather than a participant in the dream.

Higher up the scale are the full three-dimensional ones which can also have a tunnel-like focus. The rest of the dreamspace is more vivid than the lower level, but I see more straight ahead.

Another level up are ones I have that are very three-dimensional, very vivid, and with full peripheral vision where the entire scene is clear. These are the ones that are just below lucid.

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11:22 pm
July 4, 2010


Learjet

Australia

Lead Investigator

posts 1122

Nosfer said:

And speaking of which, I have recorded a few different levels of dream vividness.


Yes I do also, even while lucid or aware that I'm dreaming. But this is where it gets strange.

One night I became fully lucid and aware I was asleep. I was not dreaming, nor were there any signs of an active visual cortex. There weren't even any phosphenes (highly unusual for me as I see them day and night). The visual field was a completely uniform form of nothingness! Okay, so I was lucid while the visual cortex was offline.

Completely blind, I still seemed to have a body and a sensation of being OBE, but the "air" around me seemed to be more dense, somewhere between the density of air and water, going by what it felt like when I waved my arms around. 

There was also sound, and my hearing seemed to be very sensitive. The sound seemed to be from the real world, though I can't be sure about that, it may have been dream sound going by what happened next. In the mix of night noises I noticed there was a ticking clock.

I stayed in this dark lucid state for a while, not sure how long exactly and eventually woke up. I tried to determine if the sound I heard was real or dream sound, so I lay in bed (awake) listening for the clock. Nothing. I got up and walked to the door by which time I heard…. a ticking clock! The clock was in the next room, quietly ticking away inaudible from my bed position.

Possible explanations that I can think of. 1) Coincidence – it was a dream clock. 2) I was sleep walking (I am not aware that I have ever sleep walked). 3) I acquired super sensitive hearing while asleep. 4) I was out of my body and nearer to the clock.

Then there's the other end of the vivd scale – from dark to….. well I'll leave that for another post. Wink

OD'd on EMF

8:13 am
July 5, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2956

Learjet said:

…but the "air" around me seemed to be more dense, somewhere between the density of air and water, going by what it felt like when I waved my arms around. 


I've had this sensation, well not often but at more than rarely in normal dreams as well. In all of those, however, I had sight. They have always been the very vivid type and usually I'm above the scene by several meters, like in a pool of air with normal life at the bottom and me at the top surface.

It is not a defined pool, though, more like a limitless expanse (no water, just air thick enough for me to be buoyant) To get around, I paddle with my arms, pulling myself through the air.

Real sounds "invading" the dream. I've had phones ring and instead of waking me, they become part of the dream, same with traffic and horns. Alarm clocks have done that but have become dream-alarm-clocks and I will wake up in the dream (but still be dreaming) and start to go about my "getting up" routine. Usually at some point in that process I will wake up fully.

It's these types of things that made for interesting reflection as far as my being able to recognize a dream from real life.

One of the triggers that never worked for me was that every time you looked at your watch you should go through a check and ask yourself if you are awake or not. Trouble is that the dreams with enough detail for there to be a watch in were usually vivid enough that I failed the test…looking around in the dream I could see nothing that indicated I _was_ dreaming. So other methods became necessary…

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5:01 pm
July 5, 2010


Learjet

Australia

Lead Investigator

posts 1122

So… what reality checks work for you most of the time?

Generally, if anything appears to defy the laws of physics, I'll do a second reality check.

What's your most notable or significant lucid dream?

Out of the thousands I've had, a handful stand out and out of those one in particular has shook my concept of reality and ability of the brain. At least I think it was the brain lol.

OD'd on EMF

12:42 am
July 6, 2010


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

Man, this thread is really taking off…cool. Cool

Ok…triggers…I generally have 3.

1) Architecture.  In a dream, I will begin to notice the building that I'm in is a hodge-podge of places that I've been to in various times and places in my life (a building may consist of my elementary school in Chicago, an apartment in Houston, a winery in Argentina, and a clothing store in Denver).  This is actually the best trigger for me since the process in me realizing it is a bit slower.  In this manner, I usually don't wake up.

2) The Matrix Effect.  There are times in my dreams where one object will begin moving much slower or much faster than it should.  It usually occurs with a moving or flowing object like water or clouds.  For instance, someone will pour water from a pitcher into a glass.  The water will move like syrup.  I notice this…and begin to realize that I'm in a dream state.

3) The White Box.  Much more rare, but it has kept with me for years.  While a child, my grandmother had a plastic cube that would glow a soft white.  Her little Xmas tree went on top of it.  (Yeah…I know…but hey, this was the 1970's…things didn't need to make sense).  She only used it for a couple of years and really, I had no sentimental attachment to it.  Yet, since then, the "glowing white cube" has always been apart of my dreamscape.  When I see it, I instantly know that I'm dreaming.  Unfortunately…this may cause me to wake up.

Nosfer said: "Okay, that's at least two confirmations of changing text…which was what I have encountered in most of the books I've read, and counter to my own experiences. I've seen signs in my dream in a certain place, will experience some other scenes, and come back to that area and the text is still the same. Weird."

Hmmm…my text will change as well.  However, you did say "signs."  If they are a trade-marked image like a Coke sign or McDonald's sign or whatever, those typically remain constant.  Are those the type of signs that you are talking about or more like street signs or such?

Learjet asked: "So… what reality checks work for you most of the time?"

If I feel that I'm dreaming, I can change the perspective.  For instance, like watching a movie, I can change the angle or the "camera" being used in observing the situation.  Obviously, in real life, the only way that I can change my view is by physically moving.  So, if I can mentally change my perspective and the scene continues…I'm dreaming.  Maybe a bit odd, but it works for me…

Lastly, I would like to hear if people have had lucid nightmares and if the same rules (your own personal rules, triggers, and bag of tricks) apply to them.

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

5:57 am
July 6, 2010


Learjet

Australia

Lead Investigator

posts 1122

Lucid nightmares…

When I was very young I frequently dreamed of monsters chasing me. I can't remember exactly how now, but I discovered from an early age that the feeling of falling would wake me up. When I knew that I was dreaming and the monsters were not far behind, I would climb on the roof of my house and jump off! This would either wake me up or at least end the dream, 100% of the time. It got to the stage where I didn't even need to be lucid to do it. One problem I faced, I absolutely HATED the feeling of falling. So it was left to the very last minute usually.

This problem with falling has actually prevented me from having flying dreams. I know lots of people can, but I dare not go higher than 6 feet off the ground for fear of falling.

These days when fully lucid I have no fear (apart from heights still) because I know that what happens in the dream doesn't affect real life. I become God and do as I please! Well except for that one time….

I also learned that you can reason with your nightmares. One time I dreamed someone broke into the garage and stole all the tires from my car. Shortly after, I became lucid, found a dream character that represented my subconscious and told him that was a mean thing to do. After all he and I were really different aspects of the same person. He promptly returned and refitted the tires to my car! Though by then I realised that none of this was real anyway so it didn't really matter. Still, his gesture was appreciated.

Knowing that you are invincible can lead to some pretty warped behaivior lol. A few of the guys on the old lucid dreaming forum I would frequent used to partake in masacres. Thought I would try it, just for fun, as one does. Hey there are no limits in the dream world so anything goes! Found myself lucid while driving the car. Sought out as many pedestrians as I could find and ran them over! The cops were chasing me as well but I obviously didn't care lol.

Interestingly enough the couple of massacres I had didn't sit well with me. I knew the people I killed for fun were not real but it still didn't seem right somehow. I felt the dream people deserved respect too. After all they are expressions of my own subconscious and I may have to reason with it in the future.

Hope no psychiatrists are reading this. I'd be certifiable lol.

OD'd on EMF

7:47 am
July 6, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2956

Hmmm…my text will change as well. However, you did say "signs." If they are a trade-marked image like a Coke sign or McDonald's sign or whatever, those typically remain constant. Are those the type of signs that you are talking about or more like street signs or such?

Sign sign everywhere a sign…Blocking out the scenery breaking my mind…Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign? :)

Any type of sign, trade-marked ones don't show up much, but like a sign on a building declaring it to be such and such place (made up, even) Street signs. Text in a book (titles and the actual contents). etc

For my triggers I started with the look at your watch one, look, look away, look back, ask myself if the numbers have changed. For me, they wouldn't. Many of the triggers I read were variations of that and thus also failed.

I started coming up with dreams that would repeat, not so much like a recorder (not residual dreams lol) but where a specific theme or occurrence would show up. For example, on my way to class, knowing I have a big test, knowing that I haven't been there all semester, knowing that I'm probably up the crick! The scene is rarely the same, not always the same class, etc, but the theme is there.

The reason I've come up with for these dreams, I think, is because for many, many years I DID go to classes regularly. But then I stopped, well, finished. My brain got so used to that that it knows I now haven't been to class for a while and that gets worked into my subconsciousness as a "situation"

Brakes not working. I don't mean out of control but where I can't QUITE stop a vehicle and it keeps inching forward or back no matter how hard I press the break.

I have picked up on these triggers but failed to fully recognize them sometimes. In one case a trigger was happening and I declared to someone that it meant the person was dreaming! Another dream character said that I was right, but in spite of all that, I, myself, did not pick up on it and become lucid! So sometimes it's been hit and miss.

Like Rev, there are certain places that can do it as well. But these are not usually real places. My subconscious memories of certain places are so vivid that they can seem real even when awake so not as helpful. I repeatedly dream of some non-existent places and have come to realize that when I am there, I must be dreaming. These are not repeat dreams, either. More like all of a sudden things will start to look familiar, like if you walk into a city from the west and become familiar with that aspect, then one day you come in from the north and after a while of walking start to recognize things.

When this happens, most of the time now I can recognize this as a place from a previous dream. EVEN before becoming lucid I will think something like, I've been here before, it was in dream, was it this dream or from another night, wait…dream, I'm dreaming.

Falling doesn't usually end the dream, nor does it usually push me to lucidness, rather I usually start flying, or at least floating. There have been a few nightmarish ones where, as I start to fly, I try to convince myself it's a dream (next step would be recognition and then lucidity) Nope…it's not common but I've convinced myself that the situation is real a handful of times and have gotten that "this is it, it's over" feeling.

A few nightmares have turned lucid by virtue of the fact that one defense was to change the dream, even way back in my early days, this didn't _always_ result in becoming lucid, I just really thought I had super powers lol

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2:04 pm
July 6, 2010


Learjet

Australia

Lead Investigator

posts 1122

Nosfer said:

….this didn't _always_ result in becoming lucid, I just really thought I had super powers lol


Same here. I can have the ability of psychokinesis and can walk through walls without being lucid!

Apparently our brain is happy having one set of rules of physics for when we are awake and a different set when we are asleep. Or something like that.

OD'd on EMF

11:59 am
July 7, 2010


Bobarino

Valencia, CA

Investigator

posts 181

I just read this thread.. sorry for the late posting.

I have never expereiced lucid dreaming (as far as I know), but I have expereinced the opposite.  Many times I wake up, mentally, but my body is still asleep.  I am 100% aware of what is going on around me, where I am, etc.  I can hear, but I cannot for the life of me make my eyes open, move or anything else.

Over time I learned that if I can make myself roll to my side I can use the movement to wake my body up.   My arms move them I don't let them stop and create a sort of chain reaction.

When it first happened it really was quite frightning.  With time I have gotten more used to it but it is still unsettling.

I've found that being AWESOME is a full time job…

9:27 am
July 8, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2956

You're not late Bob, this thread is probably just getting started, plenty of time to jump in! Your experiences, do you attribute that to being the classical "sleep paralysis" then?

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10:42 am
July 8, 2010


Bobarino

Valencia, CA

Investigator

posts 181

LOL.  Yes.  I guess I could have just said that and been done with it.

I've found that being AWESOME is a full time job…

10:48 am
July 8, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2956

Bobarino said:

LOL.  Yes.  I guess I could have just said that and been done with it.


LOL, nah, the description is much better than just saying sleep paralysis, I was just wondering if you thought there might be some other factor involved or if there was anything you tied into that as causing it in the first place.

I've had a different form of that also, and this usually happens in a dreamstate where I can move just fine but I cannot speak, I will be trying like the dickens to YELL, possibly to warn someone or just to make my presence known, and I can barely get a sound out. Maybe my head is stuffed in the pillow at the time LOL

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4:02 pm
July 10, 2010


Leslie

Investigator

posts 157

Bobarino-  I have had that happen to me too, and it is very frustrating! It often happens when I take an afternoon nap (another one of those things that seems to happen more frequently with age), and has never happened during normal sleeping hours at night. I fall asleep on the couch and soon "wake up" but can't move. The first time it happend I was scared. But now I know what it is, and do the same 'roll over' manover to try and wake myself up. Sometimes it works, but more often it does not, and that is the frustrating part. I know that I have to wake up but can't! When I can't wake up all the way I tell myself that I'm asleep and give up trying to wake up. It sounds bizarre, but the best way to explain it is to say that I make a 'conscious decision' to go back to sleep mentally and forget about waking up 'cause it won't work. Sometimes I have ot go through this process of waking up and going back to sleep a few times before I finally wake up completely and can move.

I've often blamed this on the fact that I'm exhausted and need the sleep, but feel guilty about sleeping when I should be doing something constructive. My mind doesn't want to let my body get the rest that it needs.

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