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7:14 pm June 30, 2010
| Nosfer
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A rather interesting read and different take (or approach) on the residual hauntings idea from a "Ghost Hunters Association" Link does not necessarily constitute acceptance, endorsement, etc, yada, or etc of the site or information contained therein… :)
http://www.sgha.net/articles/residualhaunt.html
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7:19 pm June 30, 2010
| Nosfer
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I once asked someone at a ghost hunter's meeting why water was supposed to conduct ghostly energy so well. "Ions," she replied confidently. "Water has ions."
Deep breath. OK, I guess I could imagine some kind of amazing technological system that could record a flash-record of someone's brain state and somehow, years later, play it back for you, like the movie Brainstorm. I don't see why you would then see the person from the outside. I certainly don't see how this kind of super-fMRI-hyper-plus thing could happen naturally.
Didn't Ghost Lab prove that? Pardon me whilst I run from the room laughing now :)
http://www.skepticalviewer.com/forums/ghost-lab/murky-water/page-1
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7:37 pm June 30, 2010
| Learjet
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| Lead Investigator | posts 1122 |
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I remember that episode. That one really put my fur up when they interpreted the EMF data backwards lol.
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8:45 pm June 30, 2010
| Stephen
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Re the Ghost Hunters Association link: I generally agree with the article. If we were that sensitive to EM, we wouldn't need to own television sets. We could just watch the signals directly!
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Stephen the Friendly Skeptic
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6:18 am July 1, 2010
| Nosfer
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Stephen said:
Re the Ghost Hunters Association link: I generally agree with the article. If we were that sensitive to EM, we wouldn't need to own television sets. We could just watch the signals directly!
Yes, it was, and I had to actually go back up and double check the site owners when I was reading it! I would love to see more of this type of thing written by these groups. I wanted to post it to show that not all of these groups jump on the GH bandwagon and that they are such a diverse lot that we are probably often unfair in doing some of the generalizations that we do.
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10:23 am July 1, 2010
| Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Ok…much to respond to. (I've accidentally deleted two of my posts to this thread…let's see if I can go with the trifecta… )
@ Nosfer – I liked your "thermal energy on the couch" example. My thinking when dismissing that when I originally posted was time. As in some ghosts are supposedly seen for hundreds of years. Quite hard to sustain thermal heat for years without a constant source of fuel. But…it did remind me of the age old question concerning ghost hunters using a FLIR; why would ghost, whatever it would be, have the same temperature as a living human? I could never quite reason that one out.
old man said: "Can you tell me why this goofy reply tool gives me an error when I click on Quote and Reply???"
As you can tell…you are not alone…
@Learjet – A really interesting post. Thanks for sharing it. Also…more in the next response…
Nosfer: "…but I've been a very long experimenter with lucid dreams, myself."
Me three. I guess great minds do think…er…dream alike. I would definitely be in on a lucid dream thread. My own personal experience with hypnogogia (which I wrote about in "Seeing Is Not Believing") kind of started me on that path of figuring out how the brain works and what its' capable of doing.
Stephen said: "I once asked someone at a ghost hunter's meeting why water was supposed to conduct ghostly energy so well. "Ions," she replied confidently. "Water has ions."
I've done many experiments involving water. Amazing substance if you really think about it. But…as far as water having magical powers to conduct ghostly energy because of ions…um, well…maybe that type of research is above my pay-grade. 
Lastly… @ Nosfer concerning the SGHA link – Pretty interesting site, isn't it? I linked something by them ages ago in another thread. There's a couple of other groups that aren't bad as well. Unfortunately when my other computer committed suicide, it took those links with it. I thought of them when you were talking about ghost hunting groups collecting valid scientific data in the recent MDC thread.
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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11:02 am July 1, 2010
| Nosfer
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Yes, water is quite interesting…I've dealt with water that had SCs MANY FACTORS beyond what Ghost Lab was dealing with (and which they got rather impressed with)…no ghostly experiences. I think in that thread I also mentioned the conductivity of typical sea water…all we should have to do is casually stroll by the shore and be bombarded by these things!
The time factor for thermal energy is definitely an issue without some renewal source. My experiments after the Fort Mifflin episode, after the Fort Delaware episode (which was the catalyst for me not being over on the TAPS forum anymore lol), and especially after the Belcourt Castle episode showed that very well.
Have the "ghosts" on the thermal footage ever been the same temperature as a normal human? With the way they have the settings? :) But, seriously, yes why the same temp? I don't know, it kind of goes against a lot of the grain…actually it starts out with the notion of them actually catching the shape in the first place given the time of imager they were using.
Capturing the footage with the camera they had indicates that the "ghost" is a solid mass. And pretty close to normal human temperature. Right at that point my first thought would be more "Is this a normal human who is just lost?" than "Sweet merciful burrito, we caught ourselves a ghost!"
Given that the awesomely impressive footage of the figure at Fort Delaware was not shown as a flashback clip for the cadets makes me think they've rethunk that one (although the guide now uses it as an example of a heretofore non-mentioned apparition)
When I think of thermal footage showing something worth a second glance, I think more of what they caught outside the casemate at Fort Mifflin (no not the guy by the stove, but rather the amorphous cool movement)
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5:05 pm July 1, 2010
| Learjet
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| Lead Investigator | posts 1122 |
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Forgot to mention I also very much enjoyed the SGHA article.
In fact I was just talking to a friend the other night about how some frequency EM fields penetrate and others just reflect off.
And there's one question haunting me (pun intended) are the women on the GH shows instructed to wear certain materials for outer clothing? Because with the IR gear I have, it will penetrate certain types of outer clothing to reveal underwear!
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5:10 pm July 1, 2010
| Nosfer
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Learjet said:
And there's one question haunting me (pun intended) are the women on the GH shows instructed to wear certain materials for outer clothing? Because with the IR gear I have, it will penetrate certain types of outer clothing to reveal underwear!
I wonder if they are filming "as is" or "with filters" I think the problem comes more into play "with filters" (IR-Pass) though so it may not be an issue.
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7:20 pm July 1, 2010
| Stephen
| | San Jose, CA | |
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Learjet said:
And there's one question haunting me (pun intended) are the women on the GH shows instructed to wear certain materials for outer clothing? Because with the IR gear I have, it will penetrate certain types of outer clothing to reveal underwear!
Which actually happened. Look at Donna in some of the earlier GHI episodes.
Just reporting facts. Not that I was, ya know, looking or anything. Honest.
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Stephen the Friendly Skeptic
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10:39 pm July 1, 2010
| Learjet
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Lol. Yeah I think they are shooting without filters also, so they are actually not strictly IR only but a mix of IR and visible light. Cos if they were say shooting at 900nm with a block at shorter wavelength, everyone would be just about nekid!
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8:10 am July 2, 2010
| Nosfer
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Regarding filters. Have we seen any of the "core" ghost hunting shows talk about them (or much at all about their equipment?) "We are going to set this camera up with just the stock 'nightshot' setting, and next to it, aimed in the same way we are going to set up an identical camera but with an M&K 078, and next to that….."
Maybe something educational for the folks showing the same scene and how the wav…aww forget it, we've just lost 94% of the viewing audience! lol Nevermind, back to my pancakes.
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6:36 pm July 2, 2010
| Learjet
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Same goes for EMF meters. Do we see them explain the differences in meters? No. No equipment is explained at all in Ghost Hunters Academy. No lessons are given on anything! They give them a box and let them loose! That show is all about behavior.
Now excuse my misunderstanding of the word "academy". I thought that was some type of school where students are taught something. Obviously I'm mistaken. Academy is Survivor.
Some members on the TAPS forums themselves are far in front of the TV show people in technical expertise. In particular the "equipment and uses" sections. This is where a lot of the techs and engineers hang out. These are the people that should be doing the show!
Sorry to the OP, I've strayed far from topic.
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7:42 pm July 3, 2010
| Stephen
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In a vague and vain attempt to return to the original topic:
Of the two main types of hauntings, I find residual hauntings to be the more plausible. Which is kind of like saying, "Between the Atlantic and the Pacific, I find the Pacific to be the most dry."
A conscious haunting requires mind-body dualism, survival after death, and post-mortem interaction with the material world. That's a lot of stuff that is at least unproved, and by and large is against the current scientific understanding of consciousness and the universe. Could still be true, but it would require about a hundred years' worth of scientific evidence.
A residual haunting would only (bwahahaha) require some kind of natural recording and playback method unknown to current science. The plausibility level is extremely low, but there's nothing I know of that explicitly contradicts it.
All in all Bigfoot is more likely.
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Stephen the Friendly Skeptic
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11:20 pm July 3, 2010
| Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Stephen said: "A conscious haunting requires mind-body dualism, survival after death, and post-mortem interaction with the material world."
Not necessarily…
You are using the traditional modern American version of "ghost" as your basis.
For example, a conscious or intelligent haunting may involve demons. No, that is not generally my belief, but many do believe in such things. And…really…if "ghosts" might be real, why not demons? Why do I bring up demons in the first place? The "survival after death" portion of your statement. Demons, among many belief systems, were never "of the living." They are supernatural beings right from the start. (And by the way, for centuries, the word "demon" and the concept of a demon wasn't associated with "evil" until Christianity got a hold of it. Only then did these "natural spirits" became "EVIL!")
And as for "mind-body dualism"…*sighs*…Nosfer is going to love this one…but one could point another possibility including alternate dimensions, multi-verses and whatever else science fiction for the time being can throw at us. So the "mind" in question may not even be human or "fully present" in our time and space.
Lastly…for the "post mortem interaction with the material world" aspect…that falls back on our modern American view. "We" have a very dim of this, however, the Chinese do not, especially in the more rural areas. They believe that they can contact their ancestors and if properly respected and appeased, they will help their descendants in a very material way. And lest we forget this gem…
So all I'm saying is that the intelligent/conscious haunting type isn't so cut and dry.
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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7:54 am July 4, 2010
| Nosfer
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I KNEW it! Tegmark and Deutsche were right! :)
Anywho…I think the Doctor(?) and I had a discussion about plausibility of Ghost vs Demon and are they same different, lumped together, etc in the comments part of the episode where the clawing happened. The one where the entity was a demon masquerading as a ghost or something like that.
Given the number of unknowns involved with either type of haunting, and the various cultures and points of view from which what a haunting might be is seen, I'd be hesitant, myself, to say which is more plausible, residual or intelligent (to use the "terms")
I know memories can be recorded and replayed by a trigger…in the mind, sort of a personal "residual" haunting. I think for residuals we're back to Revenant's original post in this thread. He said:
From that point…how is this energy stored through time? Then…how is the energy released?
Only after we answer those questions could we truly start to figure out what the "residual energy" would do or what its properties would be.
There were a few examples of energy storage (albeit brief in the case of thermal, longer in case of light and imprinting)
For an example of imprinting (and continual playback) check the third video here for what could truly be called a documented "residual energy ghost" which was the result of tragic circumstances:
http://www.cddc.vt.edu/host/atomic/hiroshim/hirovid1.html
I think the next step would be to put our minds to discovering the second part…refine the storage and release of energy, and then delve into what it could do. Or at least try to refine and delve…if we can't, at least we tried :)
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9:38 pm July 4, 2010
| Stephen
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Rev: In my defense, I was going by the TAPS definition of an intelligent haunting. They classify demons separately.
If we leave that behind, there are a wealth of possibilities. Parallel universes leaking over (which, uh, they're not supposed to do, thus the term "parallel") and even dark-matter entities which choose to throw chairs around in lighthouses for some reason. Who knows.
Nosfer: hmm, if residuals happened only in cases of atomic blasts, then we'd have something. I can imagine that you might be able to get some kind of natural MRI with a EMP blast (based on a survey in which I typed gibberish that seemed plausible to me). The tricky part is decoding it and playing it back. Would there be any possibility of some kind of natural hologram?
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Stephen the Friendly Skeptic
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7:50 am July 5, 2010
| old guy
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I can imagine that you might be able to get some kind of natural MRI with a EMP blast (based on a survey in which I typed gibberish that seemed plausible to me). The tricky part is decoding it and playing it back. Would there be any possibility of some kind of natural hologram?
Random thoughts:
Everyone is probably aware of the Kirlian Effect. My Mrs.' now deceased uncle used to be fascinated by images of his missing index finger.
The blasts on Hiroshima/Nagasaki were so horrendous and instantaneous, some individuals were vaporized, leaving only their shadows.
We are bio-electrical organisms. I'm astonished that we perform a system reboot every night, and can still wake up the next morning as who we were the day before.
I'm equally astonished that we can be routinely subjected to a magnetic field so powerful that it forces the hydrogen atoms in our bodies into alignment – without degaussing our brains.
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8:28 am July 5, 2010
| Nosfer
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Stephen said:
Rev: In my defense, I was going by the TAPS definition of an intelligent haunting. They classify demons separately.
I wonder where they got _their_ definition from? :) If it truly is their own, it's probably one of the only things they've come up with! Not that they've made any efforts toward proving that WAG (doesn't even qualify as a S-WAG) I'd lean toward putting demons in with "ghosts" for consideration (not that we've really defined ghost, either) Afterall, a demon can mimic a ghost (right before it claws your pant leg!)
Actually I'm half-serious there…TAPS does consider them to be two separate things, but apparently they CAN be close enough in nature that one could be confused for the other by the untrained. Cough! Cough!
And does it have to be evil? Rev is correct, the original connotation of the Greek word of demon had no positive nor negative aspect. Since they were considered a type of "spirit" the line between them and "ghost" fades a little.
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