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11:26 am
June 29, 2010
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kevin
| | Louisville | |
| Investigator | posts 54 |
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There was some discussion of residual hauntings in the GHA thread of last week's episode. I was going to post this there, but decided it was a little off-topic.
In the Alcatraz episode of GH, during the Q & A, somebody asked if it was possible for there to be both residual and intelligent hauntings at the same location. Jason said yes and then defined each of them. Grant then described a case of residual haunting they had investigated just prior to the show. This, to me, is the interesting part: the residual haunting experienced by this woman, according to Grant, was of herself as a child. Now this is the first time that I know of, at least on GH, that an alleged paranormal event has been attributed to someone still living (all hoaxing aside).
So, throughout our lives, are we leaving traces of residual energy which can reenact events from our lives? Smells fishy to me. Or is that a residual fish smell from a Moby Dick's fish box for two I ate for dinner ten years ago?
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11:59 am
June 29, 2010
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Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Kevin asked: "So, throughout our lives, are we leaving traces of residual energy which can reenact events from our lives?"
Right out of the gate, my stumbling block is the "residual energy" aspect. This is a very common concept within the paranormal community. It is akin to "positive" and "negative" energy as well. Energy is treated like a very mysterious thing. Energy isn't very mysterious. In fact, we know a great deal about it.
I am not asking Kevin directly but really the paranormal community as a whole…exactly what type of energy are we talking about? Many choices; gravitational, thermal, kinetic, chemical, electricity, magnetic, electromagnectic, electrostatic, sound, nuclear…the list goes on. I need something to go on.
From that point…how is this energy stored through time? Then…how is the energy released?
Only after we answer those questions could we truly start to figure out what the "residual energy" would do or what its properties would be.
So…because I cannot answer the questions that I've asked…my answer to Kevin's original question is…"Probably not. No."
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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12:40 pm
June 29, 2010
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Nosfer
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Can we leave behind traces of energy? What is energy? Heat, as Rev says above, is a form of energy. One way of leaving some of your energy around would be to sit on a couch for a while. Go ahead, do that while we wait. Thousand and one, thousand and two,…, thousand and one hundred eighty-six. Okay. Now, move beyond the space and time which you were in. (time is easy, that happens automatically….space, well, just get up and move away from the couch)
Now, take out your handy-dandy thermal imaging camera and aim it at the sofa. If we did this right, we should see some of your left over energy (thermal) and it will probably even look similar in outline to you. So yes some of your energy has been stored in time in a place away from your body after you go off and do other things. I guess that's step one….. :)
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10:15 pm
June 29, 2010
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Learjet
| | Australia | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1122 |
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Mmm, photon energy leaves an imprint on many things. The most notable being with photography on film, CCD imagers and the entire printing process. The final stage (print) may not be energy but the imprint is there.
As for residual apparitions (should they be genuine), I think it would be fair to say the mechanism for such appearances is completely unknown.
"Energy" is a popular buzz word thrown about by the spiritualist community in an attempt to explain many things they know nothing about. It makes them seem like idiots to the scientific community and diminishes any credibility they and the entire paranormal field may have had.
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9:49 am
June 30, 2010
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Nosfer
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The term "residual" needs to be looked at, too. As used, it is a type of energy, but not at the same level as the ones Rev listed above. It is used _in addition_ or as _another_ qualifier to the ones listed above.
Residual…residue, simply a remainder or something left over. I submit that it is not another new form of energy but just as I said "left over" or "left behind"
Aiming the thermal imager at my hand shows the energy (heat) that my hand produces. Placing my hand on a countertop and removing it and then looking at the countertop with a thermal imager reveals the residue or residual heat energy, that energy which was left behind by my hand.
We "just" now need to examine how/IF this is/could then carried to the next steps. That's where the fun begins lol
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12:14 pm
June 30, 2010
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old guy
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"Mmm, photon energy leaves an imprint on many things."
Yup. Not to mention magnetic fields, radiation, Big Bangs, and other "naturally ocurring" sources.
"It makes them seem like idiots to the scientific community and diminishes any credibility they and the entire paranormal field may have had."
WHat??? You mean… my Ovilus is fake?!? 
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12:33 pm
June 30, 2010
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Nosfer
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old guy said:
"Mmm, photon energy leaves an imprint on many things."
1:
Yup. Not to mention magnetic fields, radiation, Big Bangs, and other "naturally ocurring" sources.
2:
"It makes them seem like idiots to the scientific community and diminishes any credibility they and the entire paranormal field may have had."
Perhaps I read the above wrong, but I'm not seeing the leap from 1 to 2 here. We've acknowledged the possibility of energy "imprinting" which is the starting premise they use, but having acknowledged that, we jump to "they seem like idiots"?
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1:03 pm
June 30, 2010
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old guy
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| Investigator in Training | posts 12 |
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Was quoting and agreeing Learjet, ""Energy" is a popular buzz word thrown about by the spiritualist community in an attempt to explain many things they know nothing about. It makes them seem like idiots to the scientific community and diminishes any credibility they and the entire paranormal field may have had."
The field of paranormal research is inundated with "hobbyists" running around with all manner of ghost detectors collecting and presenting "evidence" that proves nothing. But as long as the zealots among them are insistent that their evidence is proof, they will continue to look foolish at best.
Can you tell me why this goofy reply tool gives me an error when I click on Quote and Reply???
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1:41 pm
June 30, 2010
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Nosfer
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old guy said:
Was quoting and agreeing Learjet, ""Energy" is a popular buzz word thrown about by the spiritualist community in an attempt to explain many things they know nothing about. It makes them seem like idiots to the scientific community and diminishes any credibility they and the entire paranormal field may have had."
The field of paranormal research is inundated with "hobbyists" running around with all manner of ghost detectors collecting and presenting "evidence" that proves nothing. But as long as the zealots among them are insistent that their evidence is proof, they will continue to look foolish at best.
In that fashion I agree, they don't seem to be able to consider the next steps. Get caught up on buzzwords, as you say, especially "residual" at the moment, without really knowing what it means and never getting beyond it. Yes, that does really lessen their credibility. They need to recognize that there are additional steps to take if they are going to show or prove anything, but unfortunately it appears that many believe that things have already been proven and they are now just trying to get readings or whatever that (to them) confirms a "haunt" Witness the cadets on GHA. They state quite definitely and probably believe with certainty that an EMF spike now is the sign of a ghost. Not even thinking about it anymore, accepting it as proven fact when it's quite far from that!
Can you tell me why this goofy reply tool gives me an error when I click on Quote and Reply???
COULD have something to do with the type/version of browser? Certain browsers don't do as well here as others! Which browser are you using?
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2:48 pm
June 30, 2010
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old guy
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| Investigator in Training | posts 12 |
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"Which browser are you using?"
IE 8.
(Internet Exploder)
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2:53 pm
June 30, 2010
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Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
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old guy said:
"Which browser are you using?"
IE 8.
(Internet Exploder)
Switched over and tried IE8…tried to Quote and Reply. It threw a javascript error. I scrolled down to where the reply box should be and it WAS there, but it was NOT populated with the quoted text of the original poster.
My diagnosis…IE is not the browser of choice for SV!! Well, it's something I've heard before, too, so this is just another thing that IE can't do here :(
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4:48 pm
June 30, 2010
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Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
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There is an episode of GH on right now, not sure the title but one of the first with Tango. A good example of the buzzword situation. Hearing something and Grant asking if there's anything on the floor…nothing…oh okay, I thought there might be "residual footprints."
A valid statement…maybe not the best of terms to use, though, but valid…"left over" footprints. Left over heat from footprints. But it sounds so much better to say "residual" 'cause that's the word of the day now :)
They are also showing a NICE thermal shot, the most data onscreen that I've ever seen on the show…wish they would show those parameters all the time!
Edited: Title is "NJ Affiliate"
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4:50 pm
June 30, 2010
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Learjet
| | Australia | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1122 |
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After each of my parents died, I heard noises that were unique to them. My father used to clear his throat in a certain manner and we heard footsteps going up the back stairs. Looking out the back, there was nothing there. When I say "we" I wasn't the only one to hear this.
After my mother died, I heard footsteps inside the house and a doorknob distinctly rattle.
Residual hauntings perhaps? Or hallucinations?
As a bit of a skeptic it's natural for me to attempt to debunk my own experiences. In the first instance I don't think hallucination comes into play if two people heard it at the same time. It is possible that we heard noises that sounded similar to what my father would make and interpreted them incorrectly. This happened on and off for a few days after he died and then we never heard them again.
In the case of the inside footsteps and doorknob rattle, this one really freaked me out because it was quite loud and very distinct. It was a cool still night at around 4am, about 2 weeks after my mother died. I was in bed but not asleep nor near sleep. With my heart racing I went to investigate who broke into the house! I though I had burglars.
I tried to re-create this, to no success. I don't have loose floor boards and I couldn't get the knob to rattle like that. Would you believe I even jammed on a night vision image intensifier tube to my video camera and pointed it at the door! This predates the Ghost Hunters show by over a decade by the way!
So how do I find an explanation for that? Well, people hallucinate. Can happen with any or all senses. If someone else told me the same story I would probably dismiss it as such. But this time it was me, and me being me know myself better than most. I practise lucid dreaming and experiment with hypnagogic/hypnopompic hallucinations. Being keenly aware of my abilities, the door knob rattle doesn't fit with my state of consciousness at the time. I rarely experience auditory pre-sleep hallucinations. If I hallucinated this, it would have been a once off for that type.
This occurance only happened once and has never repeated in the 18 years since.
What's this got to do with my mother? She used to come up to the door and turn the knob like that.
Never-the-less I will concede that once off hallucinations do happen, even though this one doesn't fit my hallucination profile, this alone isn't enough to sway me. I need more, which I have in lucid dreams but that's another story.
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5:04 pm
June 30, 2010
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Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
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Thanks for that post Learjet, very interesting! This is where trust comes into play very heavily as far as investigations and investigators. If Grant were to come in and tell me that story, I'd listen, nod a few times, maybe say "cool" or "dude really!" and that would be it.
Coming from you, however, I read it with a much different air. Such experiences are probably not common, but they are NOT unheard of. Yours is not unique. Hallucinations are a distinct possibility, but I've been a very long experimenter with lucid dreams, myself. After a while you become very familiar with what your senses "sense" Whether something is like sleep paralysis or not, whether it is like a lucid dream or not, whether it is like a regular dream or not, etc.
Such is why, although I limit my belief in the ACTUALITY of that which is proven, I am more willing to believe in the POSSIBILITY of things that are not as mainstream.
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5:31 pm
June 30, 2010
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Learjet
| | Australia | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1122 |
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Another lucid dream experimenter, excellent. I would look forward to discussing that more in a lucid dream thread sometime.
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5:50 pm
June 30, 2010
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Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
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Ah, yes indeed! Will see about starting one here shortly. Not sure which yet is the most appropriate spot (there are one or two places better suited than others) but definitely should take it out of this one lol
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6:14 pm
June 30, 2010
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Stephen
| | San Jose, CA | |
| Admin
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Re the OP: Jay and Grant talk about that in Seeking Spirits. They claim that the woman in question had been abused, and that the emotional trauma of the abuse had caused the residual haunt, but that she had repressed her memories of the abuse until they pressed her on the point. At that point it all came flooding back.
I found that to be another of their disturbing stories. Most psychologists now doubt that that kind of repression happens. If this story is true (on any level), did the abuse actually happen, or did Jay and Grant push this woman into false memory syndrome?
Sorry about the IE problems, old guy. We need to do some upgrades around here.
I look forward to the lucid dream thread.
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Stephen the Friendly Skeptic
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6:55 pm
June 30, 2010
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kevin
| | Louisville | |
| Investigator | posts 54 |
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I just did a little on-line research of lucid dreaming. Looks very interesting! I'm anxious to learn more.
I also did some research on residual hauntings. I wanted to know what the ghost hunting intelligentsia had to say on the subject. The energy needed for a residual haunting is psychic energy. This psychic energy is produced by trauma. Violent death would be, I guess, the ultimate traumatic event. But, as in the case of the woman who had contact with her residual childhood self, death isn't necessary. The psychic energy needs to be collected and absorbed by a nearby object and saved for later playback. Limestone, quartz, bodies of water are good conductors of psychic energy. It's not clear what triggers the playback.
The B.S. meter in my brain is in the red zone, so I'd better stop here. I wonder if the people who come up with these "theories" ever take the time to actually sit down and think about how stupid this stuff sounds.
The theory of residual hauntings was developed in 1972 based on a television show called The Stone Tape.
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7:06 pm
June 30, 2010
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Stephen
| | San Jose, CA | |
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And bear in mind that Stone Tape was science fiction. So there ya go. :)
I'm curious as to what it is supposed to be in quartz, limestone, and bodies of water that make them so good at this, aside from the fact that most settled places in the US seem to be near at least one of the three.
I once asked someone at a ghost hunter's meeting why water was supposed to conduct ghostly energy so well. "Ions," she replied confidently. "Water has ions."
Deep breath. OK, I guess I could imagine some kind of amazing technological system that could record a flash-record of someone's brain state and somehow, years later, play it back for you, like the movie Brainstorm. I don't see why you would then see the person from the outside. I certainly don't see how this kind of super-fMRI-hyper-plus thing could happen naturally.
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Stephen the Friendly Skeptic
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