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7:59 am September 3, 2010
| blinddog
| | Special Agent Zombie Elimination Agency | |
| Moderator
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Organic vs inorganic ghosts?
Human, animal ghosts?
Thoughts.
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Double tap to the head. Don't become Undead.
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9:25 am September 3, 2010
| Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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I don't remember what was said in reference to "Organic vs Inorganic ghosts." What was the "theory" behind this one?
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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9:56 am September 3, 2010
| HollyDolly
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| Investigator | posts 194 |
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Can someone please explain where Kris from GH made this statement. Was it during their quest to find demon monkies or what?
That's the stupidest statement I have ever encountered.Organic matter is that which is living like a bird or a person or plant.Inorganic would be like minerals,that sort of thing.
her remark only makes sense in this context. You have ghosts of human beings and animals which at one time were living matter,alive and breathing. Then you have inorganic ghosts.This would be like reports of the Flying Dutchman or other ships,or Lincoln's ghost train.These objects though created by human beings were never alive in that sense.They only moved when the engine was fed coal or wood and the brake released, or the anchor was hoisted and the wind filled the sails to make it move.
Now ships and trains have no soul, though there are tales of hoodoo ships or other inanimate objects that seemed to be cursed for whatever reason.
But what causes ghost,ships,planes,trains,and cars, no one knows.This is a great puzzle, since these objects were never human nor alive,and certainly don't have an immortal soul we do.There is some thought animals have a material soul that dies when they die,but who knows,St.Thomas Aquinas had something to say in the matter.
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9:58 am September 3, 2010
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
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I'd say a train coming down the tracks and passing through you would be a ghost train, or inorganic ghost. If you can have that, I see no barriers blocking us from having animal ghosts.
Has TAPS ever acknowledged a ghostly OBJECT? There was a case, though, where a ghostly cat was involved, and it even brushed against Jason. Allegedly. So why was the question of the ghosts of animals at the zoo so funny, I don't know.
Is a smell organic or inorganic? The smoke smell at that place where Bruce first investigated with them…
Goes back to the issue of what causes a ghost in the first place.
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10:59 am September 3, 2010
| blinddog
| | Special Agent Zombie Elimination Agency | |
| Moderator
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I think that they (GH) would have had to nervously laugh it off as a CYA issue concerning animal ghosts.
How else could they explain their seemingly endless talent for finding paranormal happenings at the assorted forts, bars, houses, etc. that they visit.
And not be overwhelmed by ghostly roadkill on the highways and roads to these locations.
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Double tap to the head. Don't become Undead.
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11:01 am September 3, 2010
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
| Moderator
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blinddog said:
And not be overwhelmed by ghostly roadkill on the highways and roads to these locations.
Well that's a simple one…they drive during the daytime, everyone knows ghosts only come out at night! :)
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11:22 am September 3, 2010
| blinddog
| | Special Agent Zombie Elimination Agency | |
| Moderator
| posts 857 |
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I could truly accept (swallow) the theory of ghosts if they were all butt nekkid. You leave with what you brung.
But no, they're always in period dress or uniforms.
I have yet to see an investigator or just an average person open a closet door and find 'ghost clothes'.
Also what of things that were organic that become inorganic?
Does a lump of coal have the same entitlement to ghostlyness as a human, after all we too will become inorganic at some future date.
Woe me of little belief.
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Double tap to the head. Don't become Undead.
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11:34 am September 3, 2010
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
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Well, even the idea of hair and skin remaining raises questions. Like I said, it all comes down to what is a ghost, how does one become one, etc. I'd be more inclined to accept the amorphous mists than a full corporeally detailed entity. Unless, of course, we're back to the "residual" tape-recording playing back a moment in time. Or a parallel universe :)
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6:27 pm September 3, 2010
| Learjet
| | Australia | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1122 |
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I want to know where all the ghost dinosaurs are. Do ghosts have a use by date?
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11:41 pm September 3, 2010
| Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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BD asked: "Human, animal ghosts?"
(Disclaimer - My response on this subject will be somewhat ambiguous and that is by design. I wish to discuss religions, cultures, and countries in my argument. So not wishing to offend anyone or having anyone declaring any holy war on me…I shall not name names nor post various links to support my argument. So there… )
Some people believe in animal ghosts and other people who generally believe in human ghosts do not believe in animal ghosts. Why? The answer is that people's perception and beliefs of ghosts are dependent upon their religion, culture and their geographic location. And…that answer is one of my biggest gripes against the entire "ghost thing."
In general, TAPS doesn't seem to believe in animal ghosts. Why? Because a couple of very popular religions here in America do not support this. The souls of animals are viewed as "pure" or "without sin." They die, they get a "Go directly to heaven" card. No ghostly plane for them.
Now as we pull away from those popular religions, we see the "animal ghost-scape" change. Some cultures have animals as guides, guiding humans to various destinations. Other cultures have animals as guardians, guarding one against evil. Still others have demons taking the shape of animals (still seen as "animal ghosts"). Some have animal ghosts with no strings attached…they simply exist and it's silly not to think that they don't. After all, the wood-carvings around their homes pays homage to them.
So I ask you…who is right concerning animal ghosts? Tricky, isn't it? In fact…I can even give you a better example of what I'm talking about…
TAPS absolutely LOVES to record ghostly footsteps. They talk about full-bodied apparitions all the time. Many of them have claimed to have seen them. Many of the guests on the show have also claimed to have seen the same thing. Why bring this up? Because in a particular country in Asia, ghosts are known not to have legs or feet. This is symbolic of them not being able to rest until they do what they need to do or are laid to rest according to various rituals.
So depending upon what religion you worship, what culture you follow, and what cloth rectangle you salute, it will determine whether or not the ghost that you see has legs or not. This is why I put stock in math and science. No matter what you personally believe…2+2=4. No matter where you live, the speed of light is still 299,792,458 meters per second. I like that. I like consistency.
Hmmm…upon thinking about it…maybe there is some consistency in this ghost thing. Tell me where you grew up, where you currently live, what religion you worship, and what your cultural background is and I can probably tell you what your ghostly encounters consist of. And if ghosts are "real"…why would any of that matter?
(And again, if any chose to respond to this, please keep things as ambiguous as possible to avoid crazy flame-wars on this hot topic. Thanks…)
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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3:13 am September 4, 2010
| Learjet
| | Australia | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1122 |
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Revenant said:
Hmmm…upon thinking about it…maybe there is some consistency in this ghost thing. Tell me where you grew up, where you currently live, what religion you worship, and what your cultural background is and I can probably tell you what your ghostly encounters consist of.
Grew up…. here.
Currently live… same place.
Religion…. FSM or confuzzled..
Cultural background…… ? Fundamentalist protestant, turned atheist, turned spiritualist, turned FSM, turned confused.
Now I think I know where you're going with this but I have seen two cases that buck what "should" have happened.
This brings me to a story that I can't reconcile with what actually happened. Most of the relatives that I keep in frequent contact with are on my mother's side and they are devout SDA. They do not believe in life after death in a spirit world, rather only in solid physical form and only after Jesus returns to Earth and raises the dead. Anything else, including ghosts are manifestations or tricks of Satan and/or demons (which are fallen angels according to SDA belief).
Anyway, my mother's sister's husband (my uncle) dies at age 86. I'm surprised to hear that my aunt, also a devout SDA, say that she often feels the presence of her deceased husband. In her recount to me, it seems like she feels as though it's really his presence (not a trick of the devil). I'm actually taken back by this as it's totally contrary to their belief.
In similar fashion, as I recounted here in another post, my mother, also devout SDA, hears what sounds like my father's footsteps at the back stairs and the sound of clearing his throat. A facial expression can often say a thousand words, and hers at this moment was not "it's the devil" but one more of bewilderment. Bewilderment because, according to their belief, that was not supposed to happen. As you may recall I heard it also. At this time I was not SDA, rather more of a spiritualist. Me experiencing this I could understand, my mother I couldn't. They simply didn't believe that, but in these two cases I saw years of belief made worthless before my very eyes.
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8:41 am September 4, 2010
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
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Revenant said:
No matter where you live, the speed of light is still 299,792,458 meters per second. I like that. I like consistency.
2+2 might always equal 4 but the speed of light IS dependent upon where you live (altitude, pollution, climate, etc.) :)
I don't really want to go down this tricky path because Rev's caveats at the beginning of his post are right on the mark. But I think I can keep it vague like he did so let's see.
I'm going to stay with the notion that ghosts exist (for purposes of argument, anyway, not that I have all of a sudden made a paranormal break through in the last 18 hours! lol) No feet vs bootsteps. Animals vs non-animals. What about the possibility that the ghosts are all in people's heads? I don't mean an illness or anything, but rather their presence is a result of "something" interacting with the mind, thus the way your mind interprets and puts form to it, is kept inline with your belief system? Some sort of stimuli prompts the haunting _in your head_ Your brain turns it into some sort of external manifestation and away you go.
Now, of course, Learjet's account above throws my "theory" all out of whack, but all "good theories" need exceptions or qualifiers (or "weasel-out" conditions for why the theory doesn't always work)
Then there are the cases you sometimes hear of disbelievers turned to believers. These, of course, need to be vetted to make sure there isn't some ulterior motive (like a newly released book or film) but they would be examples where something happens counter to the person's belief set but is experienced by said non-believer-turned-believer.
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10:03 am September 4, 2010
| Learjet
| | Australia | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1122 |
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Nosfer said:
…..What about the possibility that the ghosts are all in people's heads?….
I think there is a possibility for this also. Sounds, visions, voices – no one else hears or sees them, just the person it is intended for. However these are also the hardest to verify and the easiest to pass off as auditory or visual hallucinations. There may be certain cues involved also.
We've all heard of the plane crash scenario. Person hears a voice telling them not to get on the plane. They don't and the plane crashes sparing their life. I even had one person tell me that this happened to him. He does a lot of flying and assured me this was not the norm. He didn't even want to heed the voice at first, but it became more insistent as he proceeded to board the flight. Eventually he decided he better go by car instead even though the trip would take a lot longer. On reaching his destination he got one big shock when he was told the plane crashed in the sea killing everyone on board. As a religious person, his belief was this was a warning from angels.
It's an amazing story off survival for sure, but as a skeptic I wonder if there were any clues that made the flight suspect that he didn't mention in the story. Did the plane look old and battered? Did the pilots seem a little on the weather? Did the airline or aircraft have a bad safety reputation? And why didn't the voice warn the other passengers? Or did it and they didn't listen?
The above scenario is easy to dismiss, although if it happened to me personally, I may not be such a skeptic.
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12:08 pm September 4, 2010
| Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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@ Learjet – In my intentionally ambiguous post, I should have been more specific on one point. When talking of "ghost encounters (animals, ghosts with legs, ghosts without, etc)" I was really referring to TAPS or ghost-hunters in general…as in those searching for ghosts with NO personal interests (encounters with a departed loved one). That was my mistake. But, I will respond with why using a personal example…
A while back, I had to take one of my dogs into the vet for a couple of procedures. She had to spend the night there. Being 15 years old, any procedure is a roll of dice. That night, while on the computer, I heard her coming around the chair as she always does. I could hear her dog tags. Problem was…she was stll at the vet and my other dog was fast asleep. No ghost story here…my older dog was perfectly fine. I was just worried about her. I'm thinking that I heard another type of sound, but due to me worrying about my dog, my brain translated that into a familiar sound; her dog tags which, momentarily, made me feel better.
In NO way, shape or form am I relating that experience to the losses that your family had. I am not even offering it as a subtle explanation for either of your stories. I'm just pointing out, as respectfully as possible, that while one is stressed and depressed and grieving and facing a host of other emotions…one may not make the best observer. For this reason, I would like to remove very personal ghost encounters from what I was trying to get across in my other post.
In fact, this leads straight into what Nosfer was saying:
"What about the possibility that the ghosts are all in people's heads? I don't mean an illness or anything, but rather their presence is a result of "something" interacting with the mind, thus the way your mind interprets and puts form to it, is kept in line with your belief system? Some sort of stimuli prompts the haunting _in your head_ Your brain turns it into some sort of external manifestation and away you go."
As opposed to your fine example Learjet, I would offer another one. A simple scent. Aren't there times when you just catch a bit of an odor and suddenly you think of something that you haven't thought of in years? Say you're just walking along and you smell something…and suddenly you're thinking of cotton candy. You remember being at a carnival when you were 9 years old. You remember the sounds of the cheap rides and the carnival barkers yelling. You feel that warm breeze on your skin. It's almost like being there. All…from a simple scent.
I think this is what Nosfer was perhaps going for and what I had observed in some unusual way (what's new? ). What if there are environment conditions that trigger certain responses in our brain? And while trying to process it, the brain then considers your tendencies (religion, culture, geographical location) and kicks out something that you can relate to? So, if you, Nosfer, and myself went to Japan and collectively saw a ghost…just go with me here…"our" ghost would have legs and feet…even though that would not correspond with what is generally seen or experienced there pertaining to ghosts in Japan.
Hmmm…interesting, no? Without having to re-invent the wheel here…didn't Richard Wiseman do a few studies along these same lines?
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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7:39 pm September 4, 2010
| Learjet
| | Australia | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1122 |
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Revenant said:
@ Learjet – …. I'm thinking that I heard another type of sound, but due to me worrying about my dog, my brain translated that into a familiar sound….
Thanks for the dog example. It was worth me posting my example then, even though it was a bit more personal than you wanted. I've been thinking along similar lines as to what the sounds we heard were, and this seems like a reasonable and likely scenario in this particular case. (audio pareidolia) I thank you for that!
It was still interesting though, in that those experiences were able to challenge a long held belief. What's that saying…. "seeing is believing". Even with a mistaken sight or sound.
Arh, I sometimes feel like our brains are made from knotted balls of string and we have to unravel them lol.
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