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10:25 am October 16, 2009
| Stephen
| | San Jose, CA | |
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On the Cornwall Jail Thread, Matt presented the following comment, which I'm moving here for further discussion.
Matt writes:
"…plainly states the unscientific and mostly made-up "fact" that the high EM fields caused by the electrical wires in the ceiling of this basement will cause anyone who spends enough time in the basement to become nauseous, paranoid and possibly even hallucinate."
Okay, I've seen you slam the EMF theory many times on this blog, but have you actually bothered looking into the effects that EMF may or may not have on the brain? Just because it sounds crazy doesn't make it untrue. Below are a couple of sites I found after googling the subject. Assuming you don't any of this already, you might think twice before accusing the paranormal investigation community of making things up:
http://www.mercola.com/article/emf/emf_dangers.htm – medical site that talks about the harmful effects of electromagnetic frequencies on the human body.
http://proliberty.com/observer/20090118.htm – sort of a tin-foil hat conspiracy site, but this page refers to real doctors who used EMF to alter patients emotion/make subliminal suggestions, with varying degrees of success.
Is the EMF that radiates from the average home appliance enough to play with your emotions or make you feel nauseated or paraoid? Probably not. But most times when Jay and Grant bring that theory up it's when they are in an home either old/bad copper wiring or instances when there is a lot of exposed wiring present in a room.
I will repost my comments below. This is a potentially interesting debate. Let's keep it civil, as always.
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Stephen the Friendly Skeptic
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10:34 am October 16, 2009
| Stephen
| | San Jose, CA | |
| Admin
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(Reposted from Cornwall Jail thread)
@Matt:
That's a reasonable question. The answer is yes, we have done the research. The results are here:
http://www.skepticalviewer.com/forums/ghost-hunters/electromagnetic-sensitivity/page-1
The short version: researchers tried repeatedly to demonstrate ES in the lab and failed. The lone successful study used an emitter that made noise and cued the subjects. In the remaining trials subjects couldn't tell if they were exposed to EMF radiation or not.
What annoys me about the EMF claim that GH makes is that they recite it as if it were established fact. It doesn't actually sound that crazy to me. In fact when they first mentioned the idea it sounded interesting. It just isn't true.
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Stephen the Friendly Skeptic
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11:57 am October 16, 2009
| The Doctor
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| Lead Investigator | posts 488 |
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Matt writes:
"…plainly states the unscientific and mostly made-up "fact" that the high EM fields caused by the electrical wires in the ceiling of this basement will cause anyone who spends enough time in the basement to become nauseous, paranoid and possibly even hallucinate."
Okay, I've seen you slam the EMF theory many times on this blog, but have you actually bothered looking into the effects that EMF may or may not have on the brain? Just because it sounds crazy doesn't make it untrue.
Matt, on the site you supply it states
"Numerous studies have produced contradictory results, yet some experts are convinced that the threat is real. "
The use of "some" rather then wording like "the majority of", "most" or even simply "many" gives us an indication of the weight of the opinions.
The "expert ghost Hunters" themselves preface their statements with weasel words like " some people believe exposure to EMF …"
They appear to be afraid to state their own opinion, yet when in various episodes Amy, Tango, and now Jay are struck ill in a certain defined area, they jump on EMF as the possible cause.
Why do they not even bother to take a digital reading when Jay is affected ?
Why are Amy and Tango then NOT affected in the same area ?
An area of high EMF is a trivial matter for an engineer to create – with a group of "sensitives" within their own team they could perform definative tests and actually gain specific knowledge directly applicable to their ghost hunting. Why do you think they have never tried this ?
There may well be something confined to small areas that may have some effect on people, and it may turn out to be paranormal, but we DO have the means to find out if it is sporatically high EMF spikes as Jay suggests.
BTW – If ghosts cause high EMF, and high EMF causes cancer, why does Grant keep saying that people are in no danger from the spirits ?
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5:11 pm October 16, 2009
| Angelayo1970
| | Sysematically breaking all my new year's resolutions | |
| Investigator | posts 162 |
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I read the article on the mercola website which Matt linked on the discussion thread, and something struck me about it. The article stated that exposure to RADAR equipment, which emits unbelievably high amounts of EMF, should be avoided at all cost, so I asked an "expert"…my husband, who was a RADAR tech the first six years of his military career.
We have discussed the fact here in other threads that no one on this site who has had an MRI has ever suffered from feelings of nervousness or anxiousness, let alone had hallucinations, during the procedure. So I asked my husband if anything like that was ever discussed with our soldiers when they are in school to become RADAR techs. He said (and I'm quoting here):
"The only thing we were ever warned against while working on the RADAR was the possibility that prolonged exposure had shown the potential to cause sterililty when tested on lab animals."
When I asked him about the hallucinations/anxiety aspect, he had this to say:
"Anyone reporting effects like that while working would probably be quickly asked to provide a urine sample for 'testing'!" 
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"In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual." -Galileo Galilei
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6:23 pm October 16, 2009
| M. Roget
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| Investigator in Training | posts 17 |
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Angelayo,
I'm in complete agreement with your husband on this one. Every time one of the GH team members complains of anxiety, nausea, lightheadedness, dizziness, etc. & they blame it on high EMFs, I think of the most obvious explanation: somebody's spent too much time the previous evening leaning over Mahogany Ridge calling out, "make that a double, barkeep."
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7:10 am October 17, 2009
| Paul Anthony
| | Boston | |
| Investigator | posts 45 |
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Interesting Article Magnetic anomalies, magnetism and hauntings
Pdf file Scroll to page #2
http://www.skeptics.org.uk/newsletters/2009-2.pdf
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1:17 pm October 17, 2009
| BrendaLee
| | Thousand Oaks, CA | |
| Investigator | posts 85 |
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Very good article! Does that mean the next best ghost hunting tool is a magnet?
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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." – Dr. Seuss
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2:51 pm October 17, 2009
| rjlaman
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M. Roget said:
Angelayo,
I'm in complete agreement with your husband on this one. Every time one of the GH team members complains of anxiety, nausea, lightheadedness, dizziness, etc. & they blame it on high EMFs, I think of the most obvious explanation: somebody's spent too much time the previous evening leaning over Mahogany Ridge calling out, "make that a double, barkeep."
It is true that part of traveling or being out on the road is a lot of partying…. I'm sure they are no different.
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"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." NEMESISLABS@AOL.COM
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2:52 pm October 17, 2009
| rjlaman
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| Investigator | posts 35 |
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I browsed quickly on the FCC site. They have published studies and workplace allowance for EMF.
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"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." NEMESISLABS@AOL.COM
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2:02 pm October 18, 2009
| TasCat
| | TasCat | |
| Investigator | posts 74 |
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I found this, since we were called on to do research, which of course we have, it does seem vertigo and nausea MAY be possible in STRONG magnetic fields and you must be moving in them, we are talking fields like those the MRI produces and would only affect someone for a short time, I doubt very much that milligauss readings would incur these symptoms. If you were an MRI Technician and walked into the room close to the machine in otherwords, you MIGHT get vertigo or nausiated, until they got back into their reading room. And this is iffy as well….no mention of hallucinations, skin irritibility (hair might rise), feelings of dread or being watched, etc..the usual list J & G go through.
There is a LOT of reading here and on the World Health Organization's site in .pdf form a 2.1 odd mb download. This is a bit easier reading, but for the techies, the stats of the fields are listed on the WHO site.
http://www.greenfacts.org/en/static-fields/index.htm
http://www.who.int/peh-emf/publications/reports/ehcstatic/en/index.html
10. Conclusion
Electric and magnetic fields are invisible lines of force generated by phenomena such as the thunderstorms, the Earth’s magnetism, and the use of electricity.
Man-made static electric fields are for instance produced by friction, television screens, or the use of direct current (DC) in some rail systems. Though static electric fields can be perceived through body hair movement and small shocks, no other negative health effects have been observed and no further research is recommended.
Man-made static magnetic fields can be more than 1 000 times stronger than the Earth’s natural magnetic field, in the case of industries using direct current (DC), and up to 100 000 times stronger in the case of new technologies such as magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). The Earth’s weak magnetic field is perceived by some animals that use it for orientation. In people moving in very strong static magnetic fields vertigo and nausea have been reported, but there is no conclusive evidence of other significant health effects, nor can such effects be ruled out. The use of increasingly stronger fields makes interactions with the body more likely and further research is needed to investigate possible health effects of strong fields and long-term exposure.
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"If the sheet doesn't fit, buy a new one!"
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3:07 pm November 6, 2009
| Orion
| | The Mundane Plane | |
| Investigator | posts 105 |
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The Doctor said:
Matt, on the site you supply it states
"Numerous studies have produced contradictory results, yet some experts are convinced that the threat is real. "
The use of "some" rather then wording like "the majority of", "most" or even simply "many" gives us an indication of the weight of the opinions.
The "expert ghost Hunters" themselves preface their statements with weasel words like " some people believe exposure to EMF …"
They appear to be afraid to state their own opinion, yet when in various episodes Amy, Tango, and now Jay are struck ill in a certain defined area, they jump on EMF as the possible cause.
Why do they not even bother to take a digital reading when Jay is affected ?
Why are Amy and Tango then NOT affected in the same area ?
An area of high EMF is a trivial matter for an engineer to create – with a group of "sensitives" within their own team they could perform definative tests and actually gain specific knowledge directly applicable to their ghost hunting. Why do you think they have never tried this ?
There may well be something confined to small areas that may have some effect on people, and it may turn out to be paranormal, but we DO have the means to find out if it is sporatically high EMF spikes as Jay suggests.
BTW – If ghosts cause high EMF, and high EMF causes cancer, why does Grant keep saying that people are in no danger from the spirits ?
Since when is using a reasonable qualifier like "some" weasel-like? WTF?
I guess some people, such as the author of this article, just need to see everything in terms of simple black and white; anything more complex confuses them?
I almost always (see?) use qualifiers like "some", "many", "usually" etc.. because in real life that's how it is. It's never all or none. That's not weaselly, that's just fair, honest, and realistic.
However, if the actions don't match the words, that's different.
As to the whole EMF thing as the cause of hallucinations, I'm not sure if that started with Dr. William Roll or Michael Persinger. But even there, I don't believe their study ever concluded it absolutely affected everyone who was exposed to high amounts of EMF, just that some individuals were more sucseptible to it.
Yet again, absolutes ofuscate the issue..
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Having an open mind is a two way street.
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5:10 pm November 6, 2009
| The Doctor
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| Lead Investigator | posts 488 |
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I wrote
"The "expert ghost Hunters" themselves preface their statements with weasel words like " some people believe exposure to EMF "
On reflection perhaps I should not have underlined the "some" as the point I was attempting to make in that statement was that Jay and Grant avoid saying specifically what it is that they think. They weasel out of stating if they themselves are included in the group of "some" .
Some people will believe anything.
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I'm sure you will agree that the choice of qualifiers has a major effect on the meaning of the statement -
Drivers "almost always " stop for red lights – If only "some" drivers stopped, we would be in a lot of trouble.
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6:15 pm November 6, 2009
| Orion
| | The Mundane Plane | |
| Investigator | posts 105 |
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Ah, okay.. maybe I read through that too quickly.. but it sounded like (and I didn't know it was you who wrote the original piece) you felt they were weasling out just by not making a more definitive statement. I thought this was some blog somewhere by someone who had an unswayable opinion, one that disagreed with J&G.
Y'know, one of them "experts". ;)
I dunno though, I'll say stuff like "some people" myself often because, while I have my "tendencies of opinion" I'm never sure of anything really, and my opinion could change overnight based on new info. So I might say "some" people in that context and by inferrence be including myself in that sometimes, other times not.
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Having an open mind is a two way street.
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7:06 pm November 6, 2009
| The Doctor
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| Lead Investigator | posts 488 |
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Orion said:
So I might say "some" people in that context and by inferrence be including myself in that sometimes, other times not.
Right … as viewers we would never know which one
As I mention up thread, they would easily have the resources to test the theory and make a determination once and for all, yet they don't.
A skeptical mind would say they already suspect or are scared that such a test would prove no such sensitivity exists at the levels they measure and they would lose that "evidence".
All they have to gain is some real knowledge of matters to do with the paranormal, and that's not important compared to entertaining TV.
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9:55 pm November 6, 2009
| Orion
| | The Mundane Plane | |
| Investigator | posts 105 |
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That's for sure. Ignorance is bliss. And profitable too, apparently.
The whole resources thing just kills me. There are now so many teams with TV shows and sponsorship, you'd think they'd get the good equipment, but there's no ratings in debunking 98% of your stuff.
Of course, I'm not saying there's no such thing as paranormal activity, but just that it's more infrequent than they'd leave people to believe.
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Having an open mind is a two way street.
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4:26 pm October 10, 2010
| Learjet
| | Australia | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1119 |
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I've just a had a conversation with my brother in law that had an MRI recently. He claims to have had really "weird" dreams for a couple of days after. A bit hard to prove they were from the MRI but still….
He must have received pretty high levels of magnetic fields. They only imaged his head but the credit cards in his pants pocket that he forget were there had their magnetic strip wiped.
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7:53 am October 11, 2010
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
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Interesting report, Learjet. I'm not too familiar with MRIs having only had one, but I assume his credit cards were in his wallet…in his back pocket probably? I can't remember how far into the machine I was when I had my head shot, but I'm pretty sure my middle section was well out of the device. So it does put out a pretty good field away from the machine, then.
Now, as far as the weird dreams aspect, it would all depend upon his dream history. I mean, I'm not even sure WHAT it would take for me to consider it to be a weird dream anymore. Well, instead of weird, I should say "weirder than usual" :)
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Legal: The content of this post is copyrighted and is intended exclusively for use on skepticalviewer.com It may not be copied, distributed, or redisplayed on any other site without the express written consent of the author.
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12:42 am October 13, 2010
| Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Learjet said: "He must have received pretty high levels of magnetic fields. They only imaged his head but the credit cards in his pants pocket that he forget were there had their magnetic strip wiped."
Interesting. I'm going to assume that he is also in Australia? And, just throwing this out there…any idea if the levels are any higher then what it typically used in America?
Also, it's pretty standard here to keep all credit cards and ATM cards a good distance from it. Maybe the lab tech forgot to tell him?
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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2:16 am October 13, 2010
| Learjet
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| Lead Investigator | posts 1119 |
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He forgot he had them with him.
As for emission standards between our two countries, I don't know. We are not like China that probably don't give a blank, so I assume not that different to the US. Often we exceed US standards in some areas.
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