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Discussion Topic 20100801: Debunking?

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8:44 am
August 1, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2954

For some time, now we’ve heard the term debunking tossed around; so I thought that maybe we could take a bit closer look at what it means. The basic premise that we’ve been treated to is that if an event can be replicated, it has been debunked as not being paranormal activity or in some cases “faked”.

I will propose four possible permutations of this activity for discussion.

  1. Event is fact (or paranormal), activity can be replicated
  2. Event is faked, activity can be replicated
  3. Event is fact (or paranormal), activity cannot be replicated
  4. Event is faked, activity cannot be replicated

Or, looking at this another way, if an action can be duplicated, does it mean no haunting or that the event was faked (I use the “event was faked” to refer to wondrous videos out there so that we can bring the most recent show, “Fact or Faked”, into the discussion)?

The converse applies, as well, if an action cannot be replicated, does it mean that it was automatically paranormal or that the event is as told or shown?

Let’s take one example from GH where the owner claimed that the bar stool, after it fell, landed upright. Now, let’s imagine a person trying to replicate that and drops the chair 50 times and not once does it end up on its legs. By this experiment, has the original claim been proven?

One thing to be cautious of is the other term…paranormal. I suppose in the chair example, if you take the definition literally, then it IS paranormal. 50 times in a row without landing on its legs would mean that the “normal” is to land on its side, thus landing on its legs WOULD be “not normal”. Using the term paranormal vs haunted does leave a lot of wiggle room, probably why it’s used.

As another example, let’s look at the movie Capricorn One. In this movie, there is a problem with a flight to Mars and the astronauts are taken off the rocket at the last minute, just before it launches. They proceed to dupe the general populace by going through acting out the mission, including the landing on Mars. In case anyone is still interested in seeing it and hasn’t, I won’t give away any more information. The example here is to ponder the question that just because something CAN be faked, does it necessarily mean that it didn’t or can’t happen? Ie, if Hollywood can deliver a hoaxed landing on another body, then what about the Moon Landing…..? (Disclaimer, no, I don’t believe that was faked!)

Some questions to ponder:

  1. How accurately must the event be replicated?
  2. How elaborate (or expensive) a setup can be used to replicate the event?
  3. Must it be replicated in situ?

Discuss, insert your own examples, etc. If this goes well perhaps the start of a debunking "whitepaper" can be made.

Legal: The content of this post is copyrighted and is intended exclusively for use on skepticalviewer.com It may not be copied, distributed, or redisplayed on any other site without the express written consent of the author.

10:22 am
August 1, 2010


Leslie

Investigator

posts 157

I think that it is fair to say that in this day and age, with regards to photo and video evidence, anything can be replicated  if enough effort is put into it. A little editing here, and photo shop there, and voila! The result will look like the original evidence. This directly relates to question #2-How elaborate should the set up be? Before we decide how elaborate it should be we need to decide how accurate we want to be. For me accuracy is VERY important for replicating and event. Which brings me to question #3-Must it be replicated in situ? Yes, if at all possible, to insure a greater level of accuracy. For example, when Fact or Fiction was trying to re-create the photo for Raystown Ray. I applaude them for placing their "monster" creations in the exact spot that it was photographed, and the phtographer in the same position as the original photographer. However, the time of year and lighting conditions did not match the original, which (in my opinion) takes away from the level of accuracy.

Getting back to question #2. I think the best thing to do would be to start at trying to replicate something in the exact place and conditions as was told by the evidence holder. If it cannot be done at all, or with very little accuaracy or poor results, then it is time to look at different, or more elaborate, ways to replicate it. I'm thinking of Fact or Fiction using reflections off of the glass to re-create the Arizona UFO. It didn't work, and they moved on to something else. (Although I thought their setup was lousy, and that with a liitle tweaking they could have re-created the reflection more accurately!)

How elaborate or expensive a setup is used just depends on resources available, and the amount of time and effort willing to be put forth.

4:09 am
August 2, 2010


Learjet

Australia

Lead Investigator

posts 1119

I was thinking of your question over tea tonight and how complex it can be. How do we know anything about anything?

Speaking of the Moon landing, surveys show "that 25% of Britons do not believe that humans have walked on the Moon. Similarly, 25% of Americans between the age of 18 and 25 are not sure the landings happened." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing_conspiracy_theories

I believe the Moon landing was real and TV Ghost Hunters are full of it. Yet others believe that what they see on Ghost Hunters is real and the Moon landing was faked lol.

Perhaps this is why debunking is different things to different people. Debunking to the crew of GH/I/A – FoF is not what it is for us.

Fact or Faked went to extraordinary levels to try and debunk their sea monster photo, while at the same time the easiest explanation for the photo is that it was a fake. As armchair skeptics we can't be 100% sure it was a fake either, but it looked it to me. Tongue out

It's also going to be difficult to apply a set of criteria to debunk everything.  I think some flexibility has to be taken into account on a case by case basis and even then, again as armchair skeptics, much of the time we don't have enough information to make an informed decision, just an opinion. 

If something can be replicated "pretty close to" (but not exact) then that can be, in some cases, enough to debunk, since the exact method used to fake is unknown.  In other circumstances (like the Moon landings) it's not!

OD'd on EMF

10:58 am
August 2, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2954

I don't think it's a "one size fits all" matter, either. You also have two different types of situation (or at least two) where you have cases where all you have is a verbal description (most of the GH/GHI walk-throughs) and then now with FoF you have something visual so you have a much better idea of the scene rather than having to rely on your "mind's eye"

As to levels of effort you go through, I think some of that would depend upon the source. Some "country bumpkin" coming in with 16mm or vhs footage vs someone with much more resources at his hand. Examining a CGI solution in the case of the former might be overkill. Of course, what if he is just the conduit for the video, a shill, as it were….

Expertise of the individual…the Spirit Writing case for example, you need to consider his photo lab background.

Legal: The content of this post is copyrighted and is intended exclusively for use on skepticalviewer.com It may not be copied, distributed, or redisplayed on any other site without the express written consent of the author.

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