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Defying The Experts And Smurfs

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11:42 pm
March 25, 2009


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

In a recent thread, we were discussing a religious/non-religious slant on exorcism/possession:

http://www.skepticalviewer.com/forums/possibly-paranormal/religious-and-non-religious-exorcism/page-1/post-3256/#p3256

I wrote a post giving my thoughts on the subject and Dianebk thanked me for my view and then said "I doubt that there are any "experts" in a realm of unknowns."  I have wanted to address this issue for quite some time and now is as good of a time as any.  Also, I thought this forum would be the best place for that discussion.

I have scoured the web looking at many, many websites pertaining to both ghost-hunters and demonologists.  I have "skimmed" maybe two dozen books (I simply cannot bring myself to buy most of these books).  I have read page after page on I don't know how many forums.  And one thing is brutally clear; I simply could not ascertain how one could claim to be an expert.

Since there is no formal training to enter the field of the paranormal, virtually anyone can do it.  Perhaps this is the allure.  Jason and Grant of Ghost Hunters fame are examples of this.  Without any scientific training, which is self-evident from watching the show a few times, they, as well as many others are considered "experts" in the field of the paranormal.  I tried to look for commonalities amongst these "experts."  Wildly different, in both approach and theory, two things kept popping up.  The experience in the field measured in years and having written a book.

(At this point, I was going to list seven websites to illustrate my point.  Upon thinking about it, I'm not.  No matter how I word it, it would seem to be a personal attack on these people.  In a way, perhaps it is.  I have re-written this portion of the post several times now.  Instead, I have decided to use a very silly example to illustrate my point…so enjoy… Smile )

THE EXPERIENCE IN THE FIELD MEASURED IN YEARS

Just because someone does something for a very long time does not necessarily make them an expert.  To illustrate my point, I shall use myself searching for Smurfs (yes, the little blue cartoon characters).  There is no scientific evidence that Smurfs exist.  One day, I decide to fly in the face of science and declare that there is and I'm the man who will prove it once and for all.  For the next twenty years, I dedicate my time to following up on Smurf sightings.  I talk to perhaps thousands of people and their Smurf-related experiences.  I enter people's homes, turn off the lights (because Smurfs are very sensitive to the light) and look about for evidence of their existance.  This is where I break out my "Smurf-Finding Stick."  It is a high-tech gadget that allows me to detect the presence of Smurfs.  I haven't exactly found any hardcore evidence using my Smurf-Finding Stick that would impress any scientist, but I am not detered.  One day, I shall find my proof that Smurfs exists, and that day shall be glorious.  Smurfy!

Now, from my example, I have spent 20 years dedicated to my search.  I have used scientific equipment to further my search.  Does this make me an expert?  Well, not so much.  What I actually have is 20 years worth of second hand stories.  I am in a field in which science doesn't even recognize (which is a very hard starting point).  I do not have any sort of evidence that scientists would even take a second glance at.  And just because I've been using the Smurf-Finding Stick for 20 years, that doesn't mean that I know how to properly use it or even how to interupt the readings properly.

Now people may read the last two paragraphs and have a laugh.  And why not?  Smurfs are funny.  Now replace the word "Smurf" with "Ghost."  Some people wouldn't be laughing anymore.

WRITING A BOOK

Somewhere along the line, our society has gained this perception that if one writes a book on a topic, they are some sort of an expert on the topic.  On the surface, it may make some sense.  I mean, the author would definitely need to take a great deal of time researching the topic in order to write the book.  Since the author has spent all this time researching, thusly, he is now an expert on the topic.  Yet, this is faulty reasoning.  If the author is using unreliable research, second-hand stories, and results based upon unproven scientific methods, why would his conclusions on the topic be vaild?  My point being is that just because someone takes the time to write a book, it doesn't make them an expert on the topic that they are writing about. 

And even beyond that, there's another point about writing a book.  It's not that hard, especially with this topic.  If someone came up to me and asked me to write a sequel to Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History Of Time"….um…yeah, I couldn't do that.  Ask me to write a book on a ghosts….yeah, sure, when do you need it?  Just take a look at a few books, spend some time on the web, put your "I'm really going to embellish this" hat on, and start typing.  Find a cool cover, a swanky name, and boom…you're an author.  And the sickest part…probably a best-selling author as well…sad…

EXPERTS ONE AND ALL

So…spending "x" amount of years in the field and writing a book about it…I'm just not buying it.  In fact, I'll even go one step further.  If they are experts…then so are we.  I mean, we've been watching the Ghost Hunter show and the like for a good five years now.  Sure, we're not at the locations, but so what?  Personal experiences "apparently" aren't used for evidence anyway.  And we've found just as much evidence of the paranormal as they have (namely…none.).  And we may not have written books, but we do write a great deal on the paranormal on this forum.  So…congratulations!  You are now an Expert of the Paranormal.  Be sure to update your resumes to include your new title…    

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

4:10 am
March 26, 2009


Learjet

Australia

Lead Investigator

posts 1119

Reminds me of a few youtubes I watched where a ghost hunter proclaimed about the K2, "I've seen every episode of Ghost Hunters so I know how to use the K2". There's just so many things wrong with that in so many ways…

While there may not be experts in ghost hunting, there are highly trained people in the fields where some ghost hunting equipment is used. Or I should say equipment that is used (improperly) for ghost hunting.

Take EMF meters for example. Ghost hunters love these. At least the basic models. Why? Because as with most ghost hunting equipment the results are ambiguous. Someone who knows what they are doing wouldn't even bother using such a basic meter due to the lack of useful information they produce and the large possibility of false positives. With a better meter and someone skilled enough to read it they may discover that they have been talking to the toaster.

I'm pretty sure this type of thing would resonate through all forms of equipment use. If someone was to put together a crack team of experts in EMF, thermal imaging, photography etc I reckon they would end up finding very few ghosts. It wouldn't work, because you can't have a ghost hunting TV show that finds nothing in every investigation! It seems that the less qualified people are the ones that find the most ghosts. Funny that.

OD'd on EMF

7:35 am
March 26, 2009


blinddog

Special Agent Zombie Elimination Agency

Moderator

posts 857

Revenant,
Sorry that your long search for Smurfs never came to fruition.
It has been a closely held secret that Smurfs became extinct a long time ago.
The reason being not being able to re-populate their species.
The male to female ratio was way out of whack.

It is a little known fact that there were only three female Smurfs.
Nanny Smurf, who was way past the age of menopause.
Sassette Smurf, who chose an alternative lifestyle.
Smurfette, who alas suffered from migraine headaches and was tired a lot.

Sadly Smurfs slowly began to disappear as their inability to make whoopee came to the forefront.

Double tap to the head. Don't become Undead.

7:47 am
March 26, 2009


Oubliette

Igloo in NJ

Lead Investigator

posts 574

I believe there is an old Smurf living in my basement, but I'm too scared to check it out. Surprised

If 50 million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
Anatole France

1:36 am
March 27, 2009


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

Learjet- "It seems that the less qualified people are the ones that find the most ghosts.  Funny that."

Funny it is.  And qualified or not, it won't ever stop them from declaring their authority on the subject.

Blinddog50- I will combat your argument with a MythBuster slogan.  It is the mantra of all Smurf-Hunters…"I reject your reality and replace it with my own."  Tongue out

Oubliette- I understand.  Completely seal off the basement and fill it with concrete.  This will not only drive the Smurf out, but lower your heating bills as well.

In my original post, I said that I wasn't going to list any websites.  Well, there is one that I really want to share:

http://www.hauntedamericatours.com/20groups/DemonologistKennethDeel.htm

My absolute favorite part of the Q&A are questions 12 and 13.  In question 12, he is asked if he thinks more people should get involved in ghost-hunting and paranormal investigation.  In his answer, he says "1) Not to exploit it for media attention. (ie. for book deals, TV shows, etc)."  In question 13, he's asked what the future holds for him.  His answer…a book, documentary, lectures, workshops and a radio show.  Too funny…  Laughing

But really, I would have liked the website…if only there was just one more picture of him.  Laughing

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

5:39 am
March 27, 2009


alicat

Guest

Revenant said:

In my original post, I said that I wasn't going to list any websites.  Well, there is one that I really want to share:

http://www.hauntedamericatours.com/20groups/DemonologistKennethDeel.htm

My absolute favorite part of the Q&A are questions 12 and 13.  In question 12, he is asked if he thinks more people should get involved in ghost-hunting and paranormal investigation.  In his answer, he says "1) Not to exploit it for media attention. (ie. for book deals, TV shows, etc)."  In question 13, he's asked what the future holds for him.  His answer…a book, documentary, lectures, workshops and a radio show.  Too funny…  Laughing

But really, I would have liked the website…if only there was just one more picture of him.  Laughing


Thanks for posting the site Revenant.  It was too funny.  And, yes, I agree, "if only there was just one more picture of him."!  LOL

11:34 am
March 27, 2009


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2954

I'm all over the place on this one. I'll agree that just publishing a book doesn't mean diddly. Look how many websites are out there filled with contradicting nonsense. None of it peer-reviewed.

Now, as to years of experience. I have to go yes AND no on this one. And you did qualify your post with "does not _necessarily_ make you an expert" so I think you are looking at it in a similar way to me. Just spending 20 years doesn't mean anything. 20 years of half-assed investigations consisting of improperly used equipment, non-controlled experiments and the like does not qualify for the status of expert, nor for anything else, either, except maybe a time-slot on the SciF…er…SyFy channel. :)

20 years of gathering second-hand information, ie, reports, does give you a corpus of knowledge or, at least, information. Whether or not that information is valid, you are still well versed in the reports. You can be regarded as an authority on the subject, a reference, if you will.

If your investigations are performed in a scientific manner…controlled, with thought and reason etc, you will at least amass a wealth of information pertaining to what does NOT work as far as finding Smurfs. That in itself is worth something. It is not just knowing what works that is important, but also what doesn't work. To me, if protocols, guidelines, standards, etc are followed, there is no unsuccessful experiment. You may not achieve the results you are hoping for, but something is still learned.

Unfortunately, most of what I see in these fields does not follow what I have set down previously, in which case, Revenant, your statement about years of experience is right on the money.

Legal: The content of this post is copyrighted and is intended exclusively for use on skepticalviewer.com It may not be copied, distributed, or redisplayed on any other site without the express written consent of the author.

6:06 am
March 29, 2009


Liz M

NY

Investigator

posts 30

I tried to read the twenty questions – got to #4 and couldn't continue.   Congratulations to those who could get to question 20.  The best evidence is personal experience that isn't documented?  Seriously?  So sad.

I want to believe in smurfs.  Smile

6:45 am
March 29, 2009


CrowTRobot

Investigator

posts 228

blinddog50 said:

Revenant,
Sorry that your long search for Smurfs never came to fruition.
It has been a closely held secret that Smurfs became extinct a long time ago.
The reason being not being able to re-populate their species.
The male to female ratio was way out of whack.

It is a little known fact that there were only three female Smurfs.
Nanny Smurf, who was way past the age of menopause.
Sassette Smurf, who chose an alternative lifestyle.
Smurfette, who alas suffered from migraine headaches and was tired a lot.

Sadly Smurfs slowly began to disappear as their inability to make whoopee came to the forefront.


Jeez! Where have you been? It's a well know fact, though our government refuses to come clean (The BLUE BOOK anybody?!?), but the male smurfs were abducted and taken to another planet (research is unclear which planet, or even if it's in our own galaxy) for study and experimentation. However, it was determined that they were just too annoying to keep  so they were returned to earth. Unknown at the time,  the resulting crop circles actually attract bigfoot with which smurfs now yearn to mate  (their well-documented love for garlic is what smurfs find so appealing – it's kind of like viagra with……well, nevermind).

Today, aliens return to monitor their fiendish experiment.  As smurfs and bigfoot procreate, their offspring, a hellish (some people believe  even  demonic) creature  has become known to experts as Smurffoot.

Indeed, some believe that even now, Smurffoot walks among us. There's a theory that they are even reponsible for the cattle mutilations across the southwest.

@ Oubliette: If there IS one in your basement – be careful. They are NOT to be taken lightly. Contact your local TAPS office, Terrestrials Against the Perpetuation of Smurffoot.

I….I'm thinking.

1:33 pm
April 2, 2009


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

Nosfer said:

20 years of gathering second-hand information, ie, reports, does give you a corpus of knowledge or, at least, information. Whether or not that information is valid, you are still well versed in the reports. You can be regarded as an authority on the subject, a reference, if you will.


You know, you're right on this and I will back off just a smidge on the 20 years of gathering second-hand information (pertaining to ghosts).  If the expert/author can show social relevance and include scientific viewpoints, I'm willing to listen.  And yes, I do have an example in Troy Taylor (I will be posting something in the future which will include some correspondance with him. )  Here's his website:

http://www.prairieghosts.com/museum.html

I have posted this link elsewhere on the site.  I think someone else did too at one point.  What I like is that he relates paranormal experiences during the Spiritualist Movement of the late 1800's-early 1900's to the common man.  Photography was a relatively new technology at the time.  What did people believe?  Did people buy into the "ectoplasm" being shown by mediums during seances?  Even electricity was a new concept (remember the bitter battles between Edison and Tesla over how cities should be wired for it).  What did people believe concerning experiments with electricity and the paranormal?  That question still rages on today with EMF meters and other equipment.

So I do believe that his work is valid.  I will acknowledge his expertise in these matters.  However, I couldn't really find another example.  Twenty years of talking to people about ghosts and relating it to walking about in the dark and using your FLIR as a ghost-finder still isn't grounds for the title of "expert."

CrowTRobot- I loved your UFO/paranormal rant.  For a second there, I thought you threw on the baseball cap and sunglasses and was channeling Bill from UFO Hunters.  Laughing  And by the way, I don't want to hi-jack my own thread…but is it me or has Bill really, really gone off into the deep end this season in UFOH?  A few shows back, he saw a little toy/sculpture from South America and declared that it was evidence of the alien ability to time travel.  Um…that isn't a typical "leap in logic"…that was an Evel Knievel jumping over Snake River Canyon in a rocket car kind of a leap in logic (and by the way, Evel did crash during that jump…).  I love listening to Bill's theories.  Just too much fun…

And Liz M-  Yes, we all want to believe in Smurfs.  Smile

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

3:30 pm
November 6, 2009


Orion

The Mundane Plane

Investigator

posts 105

Demonologists -  guys who don't have enough talent or discipline to play an instrument but desperately want to be "rock stars"..  that site upthread made me hurl.  Holy crap.  (hah, pun intended!)

I totally agree with the spirit of this thread.  There are no experts, and any ninny can get a book publishing deal if they've had just a little TV exposure or know the right people.  Actually, not even that.  I've got two friends (magicians) that are published (on magic).  20 years experience can count for something, but it depends on a lot too. It's not the same as say, a heart surgeon with 20 years experience doing bypasses.

Having an open mind is a two way street.

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