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Believer? Skeptic? How and why?

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12:12 pm
July 29, 2008


Logisti

Admin

posts 177

daSkeptic said:

You just described science. :)

Contrary to popular belief, science does not deal in fact, it deals exclusively in possibility. The term "scientific fact" is a misnomer.


Einstein would disagree. He believed that if you collected enough detailed facts you could predict anything with 100% accuracy. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle put that in serious doubt and Quantum Mechanics seems to have sealed the deal, though — so I tend to agree. When we say something is a proven, scientific fact we're really saying that the probability of it being incorrect is incredibly small. Still, the possibility of a different answer, however improbable, exists in pretty much all situations.

1:23 pm
July 29, 2008


daSkeptic

Investigator in Training

posts 11

Logisti said:

Einstein would disagree. He believed that if you collected enough detailed facts you could predict anything with 100% accuracy. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle put that in serious doubt and Quantum Mechanics seems to have sealed the deal, though — so I tend to agree. When we say something is a proven, scientific fact we're really saying that the probability of it being incorrect is incredibly small. Still, the possibility of a different answer, however improbable, exists in pretty much all situations.


Einstein was right. However, his belief was based upon a condition that cannot be satisfied within an infinite universe. It only becomes possible if we take reality to be finite. Even then, the human race would have to be capable of exploring the entirety of it, across all of its dimensions both known and unknown.

You are correct about science having a different understanding of proof than the average person. It is for this very reason, however, that the community discourages the use of words like proof or fact or irrefutable.

5:33 am
August 23, 2008


bullerspoke

Sweden

Investigator

posts 101

I'm a hardcore skeptic when it comes to the paranormal. That does however also apply to science in a broader sense. Having a background in social sciences I have found natural science quite lacking. Social sciences are no better, and it boils down to the formulation of question and ontology. However I do not renounce science just take a critical look when statements an conclusions are made.

But, back to the paranormal. I have been interested in the paranormal and occult since my early teens (ah, the days…), much tanks to X-files and shows alike and persons close to me. I have however always remained a skeptic since the paranormal has proven to provide little more than entertainment and intellectual games. I have never had any paranormal experiences and never seen one recounted that has enough merits. This has led to quite a controversy at times with my dad who firmly believes and has had a number of experiences. I can't of course dismiss my fathers claims, calling your father, who you find to be a rationale and intelligent person, a liar is a far stretch. It is not like this is a big matter for us, but we do agree in many other matters but this is one we remain disparate on.

Now as I said I am a skeptic and therefor has quite a high standard of what can be called proof. And also a high standard as to how this proof was or will be collected. GH and GHI fall short in much of this, but their biggest fault is that the do not publish or present their proof for peer-review. Snippets on a tv show or on Youtube is not enough. I need more, theory and methodology clearly stated and referenced, timestamps, name of equipment and a written report to recount and describe what happened and when and further most what debunking was made and in what fashion. I know that is asking for much, but hey, the claims are rather rich and need to be substantiated thouroughly.

I also am of the belief that many things that is called paranormal actually are natural phenomena aka "normal", but has not yet been discovered or explained. Lack of explanation does not make anything paranormal per se, but it breaks the barrier of normal and hopefully expands the "normal". I do believe most so called residual hauntings to be natural phenomena, not thanks to limestone an water however :) , but natural nonetheless. This goes for psycho-kinetics and other similar ones to. If it's related to energy it is most likely natural phenomena, That does not make it uninteresting, quite the contrary, because we still lack the explanations to what it really is and how it works. So the attempts to find it and then finding a way to study it, that journey is quite thrilling.

Other paranormal phenomena like psychics are more inte the realm of psychology. Although there might be something else at work when it comes to psychics it is not necessarily paranormal. Of course all the hoaxers in the field does not help neither the psychic or their believers och skeptics. To me, psychics are at best good entertainers.

For it to really impress me it has to have a intelligence or an intent and communicate two-ways and repeat that under controlled circumstances a number of times. And of course make itself physically manifest a number of times when asked to. That is a far reach, I know, but it takes quite alot to make me believe.

Now that would be intriguing and is based on the possibility of paranormal, which I of course entertain, but we are far from there. Because we lack the fundamentals, that is methods and theory that makes the above possible to prove. We have a field which mostly seems to argue in circles and use each others devices and antics as tools, without scrutinizing them. Like the EMF-meters, what is the science behind that? What's the theory that makes it being used? And what basis has that theory? And if theory is correct what does that say about the "ghosts" and what they are and why is that not explored and exploited to find out more on their "constitution".

EVPs – don't get me started. They are compelling but until they are produced in controlled circumstances and scrutinized by many thay are at best intriguing anomalies.

And the videos are compelling but equipment is not scrutinized, the circumstances often uncontrolled and to much place is left for hoaxing and many things are due to inexperience in handling a camera and interpreting what the camera "sees". Poor cameramanship makes for more anomalies and I still have not seen any anomaly that really stands the test. Good example is the "black cat" at the Underground

Railroad where temperature probably played a trick on the thermal. That paired with inexperience or lack of skill using a thermal (reflections and whatnot) and the excessive, erratic panning which GH keep insisting on makes it rather uncompelling since the marginal for error is abundant.

With that said, GH has produced som interesting finds, the closet at Stanley Hotel a personal favorite as well as the voice in the stanley catacombs, and the "princess" conversation at mt. Washingtonas aswell as the attack on Jason. Also the door in the bedroom with they guy who couldn't bring ladies to his house. All this of course relying on that hoaxery was not committed. Sound does carry, and the attack leaves open for hoaxing, but that closet and the breaking glass is intriguing. And I do find Jason rather more credible that Grant. A sentiment shared by many here from what I gather.

So I do entertain the possibility but is far from being convinced. And before a real scientific appraoch is taken, with a grounded and transparent theory and methodology and results are published for peer-review I will not be.

Unless a spirit or a demon sits down with me for a Q & A, of course. I prefer one not in victorian clothing though, one of my many military ancestors in full uniform would be nice. :)

When in doubt… figure it out!

8:25 pm
September 25, 2008


June

Investigator in Training

posts 25

I'm responding to earlier posts . . . not to the most recent–I'm sorry.
Generally speaking, both non-believers and believers have the capacity for skepticism–we should not underestimate the capacity of someone of either mindset to examine the evidence fairly. Skeptics exist in both camps, as Logisti implied. The approach for each is simply different. Yes, some people of each persuasion will never have an open or questioning mind, but to divide people simply by belief and non-belief doesn't work in reality. I think it's more about experience and belief working together to create an understanding of reality, as well as the ability of people to accept experience as an equal to belief. There are those who accept that belief (or non-belief) alone, while desirable and reasurring, is not necessarily reflected in experience. It's a bit of a paradox. But I think that the truth is more likely found in this contradiction, rather than in the black/white assertion that someone is one or the other and thus completely beyond persuasion or the power of personal experience. We human beings are quite complex.

11:34 am
September 28, 2008


Jen

Investigator in Training

posts 5

This is a great topic, and one on which I wish more people would post!

The human brain is always looking for meaning, patterns and connections, with the end goal being ensuring well-being and survival. Information, experience and emotional response compel the brain to make neural connections for the purpose of efficiently (subconsciously) evaluating new information and more quickly identifying those things which put our well-being or survivability at risk.

Maybe the best definition of a true believer is a person whose brain has established a network of neurons which allows this person to live in accordance with a belief without expending additional physical and mental resources examining it.

Given the brain's ability to adapt and change, beliefs are tenuous things. Once exposed to enough evidence, the wiring in the brain would change to accomodate a new or contrary belief. (A good reason for religious leaders – who may rely on belief to acquire monetary and legislative suport – to encourage insulation from the secular world!)

I'd say anyone still questioning and actively gathering information is by default a skeptic.

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