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11:55 pm June 17, 2009
| Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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China is a fascinating country. Such a different culture. I am always intrigued by their views on things. Especially when it comes to mythology and the paranormal (a couple of my favorite subjects). Now…this story caught my eye. Please remember…it may be difficult for you not to judge. It is a bit hard to take:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/5541242/Teenage-girl-dug-up-to-be-corpse-bride.html
At this point, I was quite curious as to what was going on and I found this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_ghost_marriage
I was surprised that Wiki had such an in depth look at this topic. I didn't know such a thing existed. It is just so…foreign a concept, that I'm having a little trouble grasping it without judging a culture that I really know very little about. Thoughts?
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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2:44 am June 18, 2009
| Learjet
| | Australia | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1119 |
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Never really heard of it, although there are a lot of supernatural/magical/ghost shows (not ghost hunting type) on Chinese TV that I sometimes watch. I don't speak the language but since Australia is of similar longitude to eastern China and in the general footprint, we are able to receive all their C band satellite TV signals. But um… yeah marrying dead people not my cup of tea personally.
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5:50 am June 18, 2009
| Oubliette
| | Igloo in NJ | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 574 |
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I can understand this. One has to consider how important a place in their culture their family name is. It is hard for us to grasp also how intensely the worship of ancestors is in the Far East. Although it all sounds so strange to us, it is all geared towards keeping the line going–a very important factor–and in the case of a deceased male, his living wife would provide the help (and probably companionship, though that is not mentioned) to the male's mother.
There are certain echoes of this in our own culture. Every parent expects the child to marry at some time, and there is usually disappointment if the offspring chooses not to do so. A new family is often pushed very hard to start having children. And the idea of a younger sibling marrying before an older one is often upsetting to the elder brother/sister and some parents also feel a concern about this.
Also, we have the spinster or old maid, an unmarried woman who has passed what was a decent marriageable age. The connotation was (thankfully this has been dying out) a negative one. Remember that old card game "Old Maid"?
This elaborate Chinese custom boils down to continuing the line even if it means adopting a child. No child means no future ancestors for upcoming generations to worship and respect. Although so much of it seems odd to me, I can discern under all the actions the need to continue this very important aspect of their culture.
I had to chuckle about the part of placing an envelope in the road and the first male coming along automatically became the husband of a deceased lady. Talk about bad luck! Depending on the family of course.
What an interesting subject! Above all, it shows the disparity between Western Civilization, the idea of a spirit, and that death is certainly not the end that so many others in different parts of the world believe it is.
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If 50 million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
Anatole France
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7:14 am June 18, 2009
| blinddog
| | Special Agent Zombie Elimination Agency | |
| Moderator
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Hmmm, digging up something dead and marrying it.
Sounds somewhat similar to my first marriage.
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Double tap to the head. Don't become Undead.
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8:02 am June 18, 2009
| alicat
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| Lead Investigator | posts 1215 |
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Revenant,
Thanks for your post and the links. I learn so much from this site. This was really fascinating. I never heard of it before but, after reading both links and Oubliette's post, I have a better grasp on it now. You're right about not judging. Every culture is different and one should not make comparisons but when something is so different as this presents itself, I have to admit it is tempting.
Oubliette is correct. We have had a bit of that in our own culture (prior to the internet) as there have been matchmakers, marriage brokers and arranged marriages before children were even born but obviously not to this extreme a point. The need to carry on one's name in some cases has caused many a family to actually dissolve in ruins. There have been many books written about arranged marriages that have been made into movies. In fact, one of my favorite Broadway musicals (which was originally a rather dark book written by Chinese-American, C.Y. Lee) was turned into a movie about an arranged marriage and carrying on the family name - Flower Drum Song.
And Oubliette, didn't you just hate that name "Old Maid"? Growing up I used to call it "Wise Woman" but that's another story altogether. An ironic twist to your comment is that there was a movie starring Bette Davis called "The Old Maid" and the author of the book was none other than Edith Wharton (GH's The Mount).
I think the moral of this story is: guys, don't be greedy when you see that red envelope in the middle of the road dont' stop, because either way, you're going to get hit!
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9:58 am June 18, 2009
| Oubliette
| | Igloo in NJ | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 574 |
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A somewhat related topic are cultures where a man has several wives. Now I'm not talking about the Mormons here. I'll keep my thoughts about that aspect of their history to myself as we know nothing can create havoc as a discussion about religion.
Many Native American tribes, as well as others around the world, had a good reason for having multiple wives. It was very simple. The mortality rate for males was very high due to the dangers of hunting and also the waging of war with other tribes. This leaves a surplus of females. Thus monogamy simply was not good for the future of the tribe. A woman alone was in a precarious position.
It was not uncommon for a man to marry (or whatever word one wishes to use) sisters, especially if one had lost her husband. It has nothing to do with lechery and everything to do with survival. I do think some of these fellows were often outvoted by his female partners, so life probably was not a piece of cake at times!
alicat–I just remembered that single old women were also often labeled as witches in our culture. Even widows were looked upon with suspicion if the woman did not re-marry. They were thought of as easy targets, especially if wealthy and/or owned land.
BTW, don't know if Revenant would agree, but in my limited experience with Chinese vs. Japanese women, it seems that the Chinese women would often "rule the roost" and are very vocal with their opinions. Japanese females, on the other hand, appear to be much more meek and submissive and would rarely, if ever, raise their voice against their husbands.
Both the Chinese and Japanese have a great reverence for their ancestors. Sometimes I feel we could learn a lot from them in that respect. It's a sad fact that for many of us, we can't really trace our ancestors back very far (I've been able to somewhat, but did not get as far as I would have liked). These cultures, however, can recite names that cover centuries.
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If 50 million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
Anatole France
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10:09 am June 18, 2009
| Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
| Moderator
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Both the Chinese and Japanese have a great reverence for their ancestors. Sometimes I feel we could learn a lot from them in that respect.
Heck, I'd see it as a step forward if some of the kids of today would have respect for their LIVING elders!
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10:46 am June 18, 2009
| alicat
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| Lead Investigator | posts 1215 |
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Well said Nosfer. That would be refreshing. Respect and reverance is sorely lacking in quite a large number of kids today. It's a shame but perhaps this should be a class taught in school. I doubt it would be successful though because it would not be considered "PC".
Oubliette, Ironic that older signal woman were once called witches whereas now one just need switch the very first letter and you would be considered current! 
Hannah is quite an accomplished genealogy researcher. I'm sure she could add a lot to the conversation here. I've tried to do my own research and was succesful back to the 1690's on one side of the family. The other, not so much but I'll keep trying.
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11:35 am June 18, 2009
| Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Oubliette said:
BTW, don't know if Revenant would agree, but in my limited experience with Chinese vs. Japanese women, it seems that the Chinese women would often "rule the roost" and are very vocal with their opinions. Japanese females, on the other hand, appear to be much more meek and submissive and would rarely, if ever, raise their voice against their husbands.
Both the Chinese and Japanese have a great reverence for their ancestors. Sometimes I feel we could learn a lot from them in that respect. It's a sad fact that for many of us, we can't really trace our ancestors back very far (I've been able to somewhat, but did not get as far as I would have liked). These cultures, however, can recite names that cover centuries.
Hmmm…I would probably steer away a bit from the first statement. I'm very uncertain if there is truth to it or simply a Western stereotype placed upon the two countries. I have met several Japanese women who were strong, articulate and wouldn't back down from an army of men. I'm not saying Oubliette intended any disrespect towards the two countries. She is literally the last person on the forum who would do such a thing. I'm just a little jumpy about saying people of a particular country are "this way" or "that way."
Yet, I will agree that the American culture does not embrace our ancestry in the same manner as many other cultures do. Nosfer made an excellent observation that we barely respect our living elders. Which is truly sad. So much knowledge and wisdom lost…
As for digging up the dead and marrying a corpse…still trying to wrap my head around that one. Perhaps, in a way, I am "too American." I place great emphasis on my individual thought and individual freedom. Although I do conform to many of our societys' constructs, I do not feel obliged to conform to all of them. For instance, I do not like paying taxes, but I do anyway. I see the point and begrudgingly understand my role in society in that regard. However, marrying for status is not high on my list of things to do. Whether or not our society wishes me to be married means very little to me. That is something that I shall decide upon, not others. So digging up a corpse and performing a ceremony just to "save face" is something I personally find, as I said before, such a foreign concept, that I can barely entertain the thought. I cannot cross that great cultural divide. Which, of course, is why this topic is so fascinating.
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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8:27 pm June 18, 2009
| Learjet
| | Australia | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1119 |
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I don't consider marrying for love rather than lineage a backward move that the western world has made, to the contrary. But it does become an issue with royalty still today.
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