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6:28 am
September 2, 2010
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Nosfer
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I guess, like Rev, that where I'm still a might bit confused is the government conspiracy, the smiling professors and the boron mutations. I mean…an April Fool's joke seems pretty tame compared to that.
See pages 39 to 43 in this pdf:
http://www.strangeark.com/nabr/NABR5.pdf
No where in there do I see anything about mutations, coverups, or the like. It seems we all of a sudden have an influx of local expertise so I hope we can take advantage of that and get some things cleared up regarding the snake and some of the odder parts of the legend :)
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10:08 am
September 2, 2010
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Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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@ Nosfer – I'm glad you posted this. I also found that link last night, but I got thrown a bit when Gertrude's post disappeared for a while. Her post seems to have made it back from the abyss. 
The article is actually pretty good. Are people seeing snakes in Pennsylvania? Sure. There are snakes there. Are they seeing snakes in the 28-40 foot range? That's….highly doubtful. Neither myself or the gentleman who wrote that article could make that case. There are just so many factors against it.
Is it possible that there are 10-15 foot snakes slithering around in Pennsylvania? Now we're starting to get into the realm of real possibility. Although a 15 foot snake is far less than the 33 foot record…it's still something that I don't want to run into out in the woods. And it's still very impressive.
As Joe Nickell, famed skeptical paranormal investigator (among other things…), is fond of showing, most people are not all that great at determining the size and even the shape of things at a distance when only looking at it for a couple of seconds. A 15 foot snake would be the length of a car! That's still crazy big. The myth loses a lot of ground when it has to push the scale into the world record area.
And yes…we still need answers on the "boron mutations" and the rest of it. To date, I have still not found any evidence that the Saxton Nuclear facility had any sort of contamination leak. And even if there was…I am not sure how that would benefit any species of snake. If anything, exposure to any sort of radiation would stunt it's growth and shorten it's life span…and that's only if it didn't just outright kill the snake. I would need some sort of scientific evidence to support this theory (outside of Godzilla or the spider that bit Peter Parker of course  ).
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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10:19 am
September 2, 2010
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SJ_Skeptic
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Revenant – just a nit, but as an avid diver I've often found the strongest thermoclines in man made lakes. there's a old quarry in PA that's used to train a lot scuba divers (it's large enough to count as "open water"). they have platforms anchored at various depths to allow students to practice various skills. I stood on one at about 25'. there was a seven degree (F) differential between my head and my feet, which, admittedly, is more than I normally encounter there. Anyway, it occurs via a process known as "stratification". Here's a deswcription ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocline#Other_water_bodies ). I brought all this up to point out that while the cold water is nutrient rich, it's oxygen poor. I'm not sure that would help a large predator.
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11:58 am
September 2, 2010
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Nosfer
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Revenant said:
I am not seeing how one myth is "better" than the other…
It's kinda like…like…what's a good analogy here? Ok, I've got one, explaining a hellhound by way of a Boar/Cat hybrid :)
The more I read Janos' second to last paragraph in his first post, the worse that idea becomes compared to the line we got from FoF. And building the dam to contain the Broad Top Snake?
And what was the roll of the Federal Government and the Army Corps of Engineers to construct a dam finished in 1972? Was it for flood control? Or was it to contain the great snake of the Broad Top Region?
Not sure how much good a dam is going to do considering that most of the reports of this snake come from areas such as railroad tracks, mine spoils, logging roads etc! Definitely non-aquatic venues.
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12:50 pm
September 2, 2010
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Gertrude
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Rev – Apparently I did disappear for a while. I was wondering what happened to my first post, but it's back. Stranger things have happened.
As for ol' Raystown Ray, I don't mean to come down on the visitors bureau. Let them have their fun. Just remember that Ray is a PR stunt. If anyone is interested in unraveling a myth, there are others across the globe far more worthy of scientific exploration. Maybe I'm just a spoil sport. Heck no, Virginia, you crazy kid, there's no such thing as Santa.
Raystown Lake as we know it today is a rather massive flood control project and its creation wiped out several small villages. This was in the early 1970's. There was a prior Raystown Dam that supported a small lake and now we have a body of water that stretches close to 30 miles.
Granted, anything is possible, but Ray, as a specific creature/myth, is the brainchild of a group who's purpose in life is to market the area to outsiders. Just how common is this – for a group to whip up a myth and to have so many buy it hook, line and sinker without any level scrutiny as you've tried to apply. Friends of mine where so excited when the fact or fiction show aired and honestly believed there was some history/substance to the lake monster story. This could be an interesting sociological study. People want so much for there to be lake monsters. There just might be, just not at Raystown, although there are some pretty large carp that hang out at the marina.
And, you're right, the legend of the Broad Top Snake needs to be treated with no less scrutiny than any other tale. All I really know is that the legend stems from a long ago train wreck (documented) in which some circus animals escaped (documented) and had to be rounded up. The legend came into true limelight I think in the 1980s with some local and national media coverage. There were, and still are, area residents who claimed to have seen an unusually large snake slinking around. Approximately 9-10 years ago, there was a siting in which witnesses claimed the beast was so long as to extend beyond the width of the road where it had stopped them dead in their tracks. There was a newspaper article – I'll see if I can track it down.
So, is the BTS worth investing the time and energy? Perhaps. I just find it a little more intriguing than a very blatant April Fool's joke.
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1:08 pm
September 2, 2010
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Nosfer
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Gertrude said:
All I really know is that the legend stems from a long ago train wreck (documented) in which some circus animals escaped (documented) and had to be rounded up.
Was that the famous train crash of 1893? So then it would be about 25-30 years after that that the first snake sighting was recorded if that sighting was in the 1920s.
Edited: Bet it was. Altoona is just northwest of the lake:
http://www3.gendisasters.com/pennsylvania/9716/altoona-pa-near-circus-train-wrecks-may-1893
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12:33 am
September 3, 2010
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Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
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@ SJ Skeptic – Thanks for the information. Obviously, I am not a diver. I mean…I will sink, but I don't think I'm coming back to the surface.  I've really only stumbled across the term when reading or watching shows focusing on oceanic currents, weather events (such as rogue waves or tsunami's), and archeology (sunken ships).
As for predators not hanging out in oxygen-poor environments…that leads us into a painfully long discussion over what constitutes a "predator," discussing scientific data that proves that predators hang or do not hang out in an area because of oxygen levels, temperature, depth, natural cover (rocks, sunken trees, etc), and about a kabillion other things. With all that mind, I'm going with…"Yeah, with this specific lake and from the specific list of fish that we have to choose from…probably…" 
@ Nosfer – Nice! Look at Nosfer bustin' out the 1893 train crash evidence! Well done. My favorite line?
"(Refering to the three lions that had escaped) The other lion is at large, but is the quietest of the three ."
The quietest of the three? Soooo….I'll never hear it coming after me? Great. Thanks for that. I'm sure myself and my family will sleep much better at night now. But funny thing…we are suddenly drawing straws to see who leaves the house to do various chores around the farm. Never did that before. Weird, no?
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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1:28 am
September 3, 2010
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Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Gertrude said: "So, is the BTS worth investing the time and energy? Perhaps. I just find it a little more intriguing than a very blatant April Fool's joke."
I want to agree with you. I should agree with you. Ethically, I'm right there by your side. But after thinking it over…I am going to go ahead and disagree. In my other post, I stated that I don't see a difference between Ray and the BTS. I was wrong. I have seen the light. Allow me to explain…
Oh, but first, if you're really serious about learning more about the BTS, I will tell you the wrong way and then the right way to get help. This will eventually lead into my overall explanation of why I'm now behind Ray as opposed to the BTS.
Back on page 1, Janos said this in reference to speaking to scientists about the giant snake: "When alumni of either university is asked about experiments on such a creature, they smile and shake their heads, no words are spoken."
This would constitute the wrong way to ask for any sort of help or information from reputable scientists. Walk up to them from out the blue and ask about a 40 foot snake in Pennsylvania…they will most likely smile, nod a bit, and slowly walk away. When out of ear-shot, they will make fun of you with their colleagues. Such is life…
From learning what we have about the BTS, the "right" way is finding a bunch of young zoologists. Those either still in school or fresh out of college. Walk up and say "Hey, there's an unknown 10-15 foot snake near Raystown Lake. We've had a century of sightings and no one can really narrow it down. Maybe it's just a normal snake. Maybe a sub-species. Maybe…something new. Interested?" Trust me…someone will bite. Field work and a chance to get their name on a paper? Yeah…someone will bite.
Where will this lead? Down a road that you may not want to travel…
Say the zoologist does find either a new sub-species or an entirely new snake. Great! Of course, now you've just confirmed that you've got huge snakes slithering around the campgrounds. That should be a big hit for the campers. And if there are any man-made structures around where the snake is found or, god-forbid, where it breeds…say good-bye to that land because you know that that young zoologist is going to slap 127 "endangered species" stickers all over that snake. Hope you don't live anywhere near those snakes because you're not building that house extension any time soon.
Even if none of that happens…you still have the BTS myth. It's a GIANT SNAKE! A bit of a hint on that one…a lot of people don't like snakes. Especially giant ones that can harm children and pets. As the myth grows…throw in the craziness with the fictional leak from the Saxton Nuclear facility. Suddenly the water isn't safe. Throw in the supposed genetic experiments. Suddenly, the fish and wild game aren't safe to eat. Nothing good can come from this myth.
In one of the oddest sentences that I have ever written; the lake monster just makes better fiscal sense than a giant snake. Even fake…people will buy Ray hats and Ray shirts. People will want to take a picture by the Ray statue. Kids will want to play on the "little Rays" in the Ray park. Tourists will laugh and eat their Ray-shaped cookies as they gaze upon the beautiful lake. "Oh look! There's Ray! Hahahaha…my, these cookies are good, aren't they?"
Ray adds revenue. The BTS subtracts revenue. And in this world…that is the bottom line.
So, that is why, if given a choice and I HAD to chose between only those two myths…if I lived there, I'd go Ray even though I knew it wasn't true. I feel sick… 
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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7:23 am
September 3, 2010
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Nosfer
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One issue of contention seems to be that Ray was investigated and not the BTS. I will shed some light on that one. One must recall the premise of the show that started all this…Fact or Faked. In the 80-some years since it was first seen, there has been no videos (or even photos apparently) of the BTS that have come to light. Faked or otherwise, there IS a photo of Ray. FoF investigates videos…no video (or photo in one case) no investigation.
FoF will go anywhere and investigate anything if there is a video…including to the wrong place and including things that are so obviously explained. (Probably another strike against them ever investigating the BTS…and if they did, they'd probably do it in Arkansas) Originally, I'd have said (or I may have even said, been a while) that FoF investigated Ray and left it unexplained as some sort of economic boost to the Raystown Lake area. Now…no, after what we've seen, there investigation prowess leaves me to believe they are just incompetent.
So, is the BTS worth investing the time and energy? Perhaps. I just find it a little more intriguing than a very blatant April Fool's joke.
From a tourism side, I agree with Rev above…you either kill off a potential moneymaker by debunking it or you open up a big can of snakes by proving it exists.
Tourism, aside, though…more intriguing, perhaps. If the 1893 train crash is the one that started this, then I think it, as a legend, starts out on as shaky ground as an April Fool's Joke. Casting origins aside for the BTS and leaving them intact (to keep the April Fools' Joke in as evidence of a hoax) then yes, the BTS would be more worthy of investigation. But not from the FoFF for several reasons.
I wish Janos would come back and explain a few of his last paragraphs…he seems to have taken a plausible legend and "Rayed it up" a bit for some reason and I'm curious as to why.
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7:14 am
September 6, 2010
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janos
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Was that the famous train crash of 1893? So then it would be about 25-30 years after that that the first snake sighting was recorded if that sighting was in the 1920s.
Edited:
Bet it was. Altoona is just northwest of the lake:
http://www3.gendisasters.com/pennsylvania/9716/altoona-pa-near-circus-train-wrecks-may-1893
@ Nosfer – Nice! Look at Nosfer bustin' out the 1893 train crash evidence! Well done. My favorite line?
"(Refering to the three lions that had escaped) The other lion is at large, but is the quietest of the three ."
The quietest of the three? Soooo….I'll never hear it coming after me? Great. Thanks for that. I'm sure myself and my family will sleep much better at night now. But funny thing…we are suddenly drawing straws to see who leaves the house to do various chores around the farm. Never did that before. Weird, no?
If one reads the 1893 newspaper account, the snakes were caught.
"……. a large collection of snakes got away, but were captured. ……..Caught A Big Anaconda….. The snake charmer caught one of his big anacondas in the bushes. The scene at the wreck is a doleful one. "
This would indicate all the big snakes were caught.
The location of the wreck was miles west of the lake. The although the location was along the Little Juniata River, that junctions with the Raystown Branch of the Juniata and at the point where the main Juniata River starts near Ardinheim and flows west to the Susquehanna River.
In 1893 no large dam, no reactor, no mention of a monster in the Rayst town. Or in the Broad top Region of Huntingdon County. No big snakes in the Broad Top from a train wreck.
Mysterious Creatures: A Guide to Cryptozoology, By George M. Eberhart, discusses the big snake myths. In his discussion, the big snakes myth, Eberhart has its origins in southeaster Pennsylvania and northern Maryland. All closer to, and with cultural and geographic ties to the Broad Top region than the Tyrone region….
The Loch Ness creature in the lake — bogus. The snake in the lake more plausible –if the snake was from northern Maryland
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9:48 am
September 6, 2010
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Nosfer
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janos said:
If one reads the 1893 newspaper account, the snakes were caught.
"……. a large collection of snakes got away, but were captured. ……..Caught A Big Anaconda….. The snake charmer caught one of his big anacondas in the bushes. The scene at the wreck is a doleful one. "
This would indicate all the big snakes were caught.
….
In 1893 no large dam, no reactor, no mention of a monster in the Rayst town. Or in the Broad top Region of Huntingdon County. No big snakes in the Broad Top from a train wreck.
Yup, that's what I was getting at…that, and the number of years in between the wreck and the first sighting make the back story for the BTS about as bad as an April Fool's publicity stunt.
The Loch Ness creature in the lake — bogus. The snake in the lake more plausible –if the snake was from northern Maryland
So a huge, giant snake more plausible than a "Loch Ness creature" Since "Loch Ness creature" is pretty much just a term used to describe a large unknown lake monster, I don't really see any difference. Or are we talking a smaller snake?
What about this spill and boron mutation stuff? We seem to have two different stories going on here…the BTS (which has never been seen in the lake as far as I know) and then this Boron-mutated giant snake IN the lake. I wish someone would clarify what's what.
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3:53 pm
September 6, 2010
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janos
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What about this spill and boron mutation stuff? We seem to have two different stories going on here…the BTS (which has never been seen in the lake as far as I know) and then this Boron-mutated giant snake IN the lake. I wish someone would clarify what's what.
>Please reread my comments on Raystown Ray in my first post.
Note the following sentences, these are the flags that the current Raystown Ray myth is not true by any stretch of the imagination and it could have been embellished better (?) if the story was part of an existing myth the Broad Top Snake:
1. The legend of Raystown Ray is bogus.
2. Actually this was public relations ploy to increase visitors to the "Lake," as it is known locally.
3. And as I said it was a spoof.
4. Had the perpetrators of the Raystown Ray story kept true to local legends, the mystery of the lake monster would have more credence.
5. Had the creators of Raystown Ray in 2006 kept with local tradition rather than inventing a Loch Ness creature, then the story would have been more of a mystery.
>Then this bit of science fiction. Maybe more along the lines of the movie "Them" about giant ants in the desert nuclear test ranges:
6. Raystown Ray would have been more believable if the story line followed a tradition that came out of the local coal mine legends, and ended up with the construction of a nuclear plant in Saxton.
>And then the bringing the new legend home – to that of science fiction – tongue in cheek: This is how the story could have begun in 2006 .
7. ( From my original post – the set up for a"proper" myth.) Raystown Ray story begins here. There has been a legend of a giant snake in the Broad Top Mountains of south-central Pennsylvania for many years.
8. But two events (the giant snake and the nuclear reactor) transformed the large snake of local legend into the lake monster of today.
9. Now one can not say that there is a connection in seeing a large snake beginning in 1927 and a decommission of a nuclear reactor in 2000. But there may be a connection.
10. When alumni of either university is asked about experiments on such a creature, they smile and shake their heads, no words are spoken.
I apologize, again, for the excess information of my original post. The boron and plutonium is a red herring. They have nothing to do with Raystown Ray or the snake.
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10:26 am
September 8, 2010
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Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Janos said: "I apologize, again, for the excess information of my original post. The boron and plutonium is a red herring. They have nothing to do with Raystown Ray or the snake."
Thank you for coming back and clearing up that confusion. Here at SV, we do a great deal of separating fact from fiction. When dealing with the paranormal, this is the first step to arriving at any sort truth. So perhaps you can see why we sort of "raised our eyebrows" at your original post. Leaks at the Saxton nuclear facility and genetic testing threw up giant red flags. When that happens, we start investigating which begins to cast doubt on the entire post.
Janos also said: "5. Had the creators of Raystown Ray in 2006 kept with local tradition rather than inventing a Loch Ness creature, then the story would have been more of a mystery."
Sadly, and respectfully, I disagree. I understand what you are saying, but personally, I believe that time and repetition have more to do with whether people believe or not than actual tradition or even facts.
The myth/hoax/spoof…whatever one wishes to call Ray, only started in 2006. It has already been featured on a national paranormal show…and here's the kicker…they didn't debunk it. They actually left it "unexplained"…which is just another way to claim that it's possible or worse…likely. Now flash-forward to 2020. People will half remember that FoF show ("As a kid, I remember seeing Ray on some show…"). The "facts" will become murky. And I'll explain how…
Ghost Hunters provide an excellent example for my repetition angle. Take almost any aspect like there is no proven relationship between ghosts and EMF. None. Zero. Yet, they tell us that there is every single week. GHI tells us the same thing. So does GHA. So do most paranormal shows. It's the repetition of these "theories" or pseudo-science that gives it power. People begin to believe it because they keep hearing it.
So combine the repetition of stories and fake facts about Ray…sprinkle in 15 to 20 years…and you have quite a strong foundation for a myth. Actual tradition wouldn't add any more mystery because people will just make up anything they need to fill in the cracks (as you yourself have shown).
As it stands, whether you or I believe in Ray is now immaterial. The genie is out of the bottle. We can debunk it. We can point out what the actual facts are that surround the likelihood of Raystown Ray. But in the long run, I'm afraid…Ray will outlast us. In 50 years, Ray will be on the same playing field as the Loch Ness Monster. It pains me to say that…but I have to call it the way that I see it. Don't believe me? Look at the Skunk Ape. Stories began in the late sixties/early seventies. There wasn't a whole of lot of "push" behind it. Now? It's been featured on countless paranormal shows and is gaining on Bigfoot all the time. Give it a couple of more decades and you can cast that myth in concrete…just like it's tracks (  ).
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