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2:36 pm
August 20, 2010
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dconlly
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| Investigator in Training | posts 20 |
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I don’t know why I even turned in for this episode since I pretty much stopped watching after the first episode. It is just so aggravating that these so called experts do not use the equipment properly. As was pointed out, the Geiger counter/radiac wasn’t zeroized or calibrated for that matter before use. This is a somewhat important step if you want to get an accurate reading, which I assume most people who use Geiger counters/radiacs do because this generally has a direct impact on health issues.
In this case they are looking for trace radioactivity evidence with something that looks like a Beta probe. Most of these types of measurement devices utilize the Geiger-muller tube. In general terms small sparks of lights are emitted inside the probe upon contact with a radioactive source. The problem arises that the probe was being held too high above a target area covered with snow. Beta particles would get blocked by snow because of its thickness and that snow is mostly water which is able to block radiation fairly efficiently. Also, it would not be a very efficient means to measure Beta particles about a foot and a half above the target area. Then when the instruments does chirp, I suspect it is because of the light bouncing off the reflective snow and going through the thin mylar covering of the probe to produce a false reading. Why bothering using a piece of equipment if they don’t know the theories behind it or how to employ it correctly?
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3:24 pm
August 20, 2010
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Nosfer
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If you go to the video on You Tube, you can see that the object appears from in front of the person walking. His right side obscures it.
Untrue, there is no evidence in the video they aired that the object enters frame IN FRONT of the person walking. There is also no evidence that the man's body ever obscures the spider, er, light.
There's even a light on his left shoulder which seems to pass through and across his back.
Then why the @$%&* did you think it might be an ATV driving through a person? There is no evidence in the video shown on the program that the light passes through the body. Or that it is even at the same distance as the man in front.
Nice bit of trying to cover with distances and speed calculations but it only makes them look even worse. The object is so classic of the position of an Orb Weaver in her web that, while there isn't time to cover every possible theory, they should have at least examined the more likely ones and not wasted time with the three stunts they DID try.
Sorry, Ben, but you're attempt at deflecting this drops the show a few more pegs.
Edited: I was going to see if I could try this tonight, but someone already beat me to it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO5WX7P1TVk
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7:59 pm
August 20, 2010
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AbsoluteTerrorField
| | Charlotte, NC | |
| Investigator in Training | posts 23 |
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Yeah, the stunts that they did were quite obvious from a standpoint of logical thinking not the cause for this. The only video I could find on youtube about it was a short four second clip that really sucked. I'm not sure if it's the same clip they used as I don't have the show on DVR or anything to compare times.
Apparently we aren't the only ones to question the content of this show, but I think it boils down to the following. If it were J&G then the majority might scream "Oh! Ghost!" but since these guys don't have the rabid following they're more subject to disbelief.
Ben just needs to stop and admit it was a spider and call it a day. Even ignoring the idea would've been a better call than throwing out numbers about speed. That video that someone did definitely seals the deal for sure. Maybe Ben should look at that to see how to truly debunk a piece of footage since the massive resources of the SyFy network can't even identify a spider in the darkness. I guess anything illuminated with night vision to them is paranormal and a sign the end of times is upon us.
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11:30 pm
August 20, 2010
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Learjet
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| Lead Investigator | posts 1075 |
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I was surprised they didn't bring out their big glass pane and try some reflection experiments. That would make more sense than the other absurd experiments they tried.
Speaking of possible reflections, I'm not sure but that could be what the light is that travels across the back of the person in front. A reflection from the overexposed spider on the opposite side of the frame.
There are 3 frames of light this side of the person in front. With the third frame the spider is out of frame with the light still there on the left, but with glass lenses it's common for out of frame bright white sources to still flare in frame on the other side. It's a plague when doing night photography with street lights. Or it could simple just be the outer part of the spider web. What do you guys think?
http://yfrog.com/jtfof00j
http://yfrog.com/mifof01j
http://yfrog.com/g0fof02j
BTW the camera person looks like they came mighty close to that spider and nearly got a face full! I have these orb spiders weave webs between my orange trees at night. Not only do I have to shine a light on the ground to not step on snakes, also have to shine it up so as not to get a face full of spider! Speaking from experience, it doesn't feel very nice!
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8:09 am
August 21, 2010
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Nosfer
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First of all, very interesting. What is shown on youtube is NOT what was broadcast here. The broadcast version here is cropped on the sides so that light over the left shoulder is not seen on the version I have DVRed.
I do have the part where the longer strip of light appears on the man's back, though. I wondered initially about reflection, too. However it moves very similar to the way those other bright bars do around the spider making me think they are the rolled remains of some of the web's earlier victims.
I wish video would have the equivalent of EXIF information that we could get from stills. Would be nice to know how much distance compression is being done by any zoom that is being used on the video camera.
Despite Ben's protests in his twit statement, the light does not at all appear to pass THROUGH the man, even in the full frame version. I'm leaning toward debris in the web. Since the same "light" appears at a point not on the man's shirt and then appears to go across (not through it) I'd lean toward saying that it's a real object and not a reflection.
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11:03 am
August 21, 2010
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Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Hmmm….ok. First up, thanks to AbsoluteTerrorField (and welcome back…I do remember you…the longest name in SV history  ) for posting Ben's response to the "Spider theory." It forced me to rethink my position on it. So…I watched the video many times (I felt like I was watching "JFK" again…back and to the left, back and to the left, back and to the left….). Afterwards, I thunk and thunk on it. And here's what I've come up with:
Ben…you are wrong. Absolutely flat out wrong. And…I'm not copying off your paper in math class either.
First and foremost, like all these videos, I'd really like to see the full video. I really want to see the "before" and "after" and not just the event. I believe we could solve most of these things with the extra 10 seconds that have been mysteriously edited out after the event. Anyway…
What is the first thing that we do when we watch the video? Our eyes focus on the center of the video and we watch for the object to move past the man's right shoulder. We try to adjust to what we are seeing. After all, the video is weird, I will grant it that. But…what is the very first thing that we see in the video? Very low, hanging tree branches. Somehow, when we begin to watch the video over and over, we seem to lose track of that and just focus on the weird object.
But it's those low hanging branches that are the absolute key. The person filming this video simply walked by a spiderweb within those branches. Since the spiderweb is so close to the camera, it gives us the illusion that it is moving. No fancy-schmancy math needed Ben. The web's speed is zero. The person holding the camera is still moving at 2-5 mph. There is no other calculation needed. Well…that's not true…there may be one more…
Remember how I said I wanted the extra 10 seconds after the "event?" If the person holding the camera had his/her arm out at a 90 degree angle…then they actually hit that web and brought it down. If this happened, then Ben can jump back in and calculate the speed of the web at that point if he so wishes. A little hint, Ben…the answer for the speed of the web is still zero…
Nosfer said: "Sorry, Ben, but you're attempt at deflecting this drops the show a few more pegs."
Yes, I would agree with this. His explanation is poor and his reasoning for not even considering a spider and spiderweb is equally poor. At least he didn't call everyone "morons" like Jason did…
So…that's what I've come up with. Not really sure if there's anything left to debate. As Nosfer pointed out, Ben actually said "There's even a light on his left shoulder that seems to pass through and across his back." Really? Your mysterious and ghostly light is passing THROUGH solid objects? And you test for that with "dust devils?" I can't argue with a person like that…
And I haven't responded on the cattle mutilation part yet. I've got some interesting things on that too. When I get more time, I'll post it.
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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3:59 pm
August 21, 2010
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Stephen
| | San Jose, CA | |
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For the record, you can find the original clip on youtube here. I found it from the Indiana Paranormal web site.
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Stephen the Friendly Skeptic
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4:45 pm
August 21, 2010
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Stephen
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Re Ben's comments: all of his math is based on the idea that the spider appears from in front of the man. It doesn't. We see the man walking. Then the camera pans right, moving him out of frame. Then the camera pans left, bringing the man and spider into view at the same time. There's no guarantee that they're traveling in a straight line, so we can make no assumption about where that spider is in 3-D space.
I stepped through this several times. No objects pass through the guy in front.
I'm going to be nice and assume that they figured it out the first time they frame-by-framed through the video, but figured that they could use this as an excuse for motorcycle stunts.
I think we all know what this means. This show will get renewed for at least two more seasons.
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Stephen the Friendly Skeptic
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5:35 pm
August 21, 2010
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Stephen
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Oh, and last but not least, our good buddy Doctor Atlantis has posted his own analysis.
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Stephen the Friendly Skeptic
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7:11 pm
August 21, 2010
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Stephen
| | San Jose, CA | |
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It's Dr. Thomas Wake. Here's his site.
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Stephen the Friendly Skeptic
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7:18 pm
August 21, 2010
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Nosfer
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Stephen said:
It's Dr. Thomas Wake. Here's his site.
Well that makes sense…afterall they botched the gals name in the Dartmoor case, too. Had her initials wrong. I sure here him say Way or Wade, definitely not a hard 'K' sound. Par for the course, though!
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1:06 pm
August 23, 2010
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hobart
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When he kept talking about the footsteps following him, I kept wondering if it just might be the camera and sound guys following him around. They walk when he walks, they stop when he stops.
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4:11 pm
August 23, 2010
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Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Hobart said: "When he kept talking about the footsteps following him, I kept wondering if it just might be the camera and sound guys following him around. They walk when he walks, they stop when he stops."
That could quite possibly be the case. My theory? The ghosts of the recently deceased leaves were trying to communicate with them, pleading with them to not step on their red, yellow, and orange decaying bodies. Hmmm…I never said my theory was any good… 
Ok…time to comment on "Cutter." And really…"Cutter?" They couldn't come up with anything better? Anyway…
During the investigation, Chi-Lan mentioned that the calf was going to be donated to a wolf sanctuary. There are a few places in Colorado that take in wolves. I'm throwing caution to the wind and am going to assume that she meant the Wolf Sanctuary.
First off, I love the place and what they do…but I'm not in love with how the website looks. It has that 1996/AOL/"cookie-cutter website" feel to it. It should look much cooler. I mean…it's about wolves. Anyway, due to budget cuts, they are not currently giving tours, which is a shame. When this changes, I'll give you the update since it really is a pretty cool place to check out if you're in, around, or passing through Colorado.
Nosfer did a fine job in outlining their experiments. When they got to the "treated leather over the balloon" insanity…I just began shaking my head. Years ago, a friend of mine went to study at what was known as "the body farm" :
http://web.utk.edu/~fac/
When it comes to taphonomy (the study of a decaying organism over time), that place is king. FoF has this nasty habit of having to re-invent the wheel for some reason. I'm all for doing your own experiments, but…it's not like they're doing anything new or exotic. Anything that they needed to know…the Tennessee Forensic Anthropology Center had the answer. No need to create and show some ill-conceived, second-rate high school experiment gone bad.
Nosfer said: "After the break, Chi-Lan continues to harp on about five UFO reports since 1996."
Yeah, that made me laugh too. In the past 5000 days there have been five unconfirmed, unexplained UFO reports. That MUST have something to do with cows dying. Of course…why wouldn't it?
Nosfer also said: "If they will not declare a case explained because they can’t replicate writing, or Phoenix Lights, or Lake Monsters EXACTLY, how can they then declare this one explained by doing an offsite test with different materials? Consistency folks, you need consistency. I’m not advocating aliens behind the mutilations at all, but I do question how they can declare this explained when it wasn’t replicated exactly…given their failure to call similar cases explained that were replicated no less convincingly."
I couldn't agree more. I just kept staring at the TV screen just shaking my head…
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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5:06 am
August 29, 2010
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Indiana
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I take issue with the criticism of wasting money to go to Indiana. I'm a lifelong Hoosier and proud of it. I agree with the review, though. As pointed out, no Civil War battles were fought in Indiana save Morgan's Raiders dashing through the southernmost part of the state. Fishers is just north of Indianapolis, in central Indiana. Second, ghosts rarely appear in cemeteries. If ever. Our collective unconscious would like to believe this, b/c this is where the bodies are. Spirits are in a whole different realm. The appearance of this apparition/spider has NOTHING to do with a battle.
If there are any other Hoosiers on this forum, can they post the name of this cemetery? I did my doctoral work on cemetery art, and this one looks to have some interesting stones.
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9:19 am
August 29, 2010
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Nosfer
| | Rotaredom | |
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I don't think it was ever stated that the spirit/spider was related to a battle (in the episode) other than having been a soldier. We were discussing battles at the beginning of this thread before the program aired because the description talked about a Civil War soldier. We also weren't sure where in Indiana it took place so initial thought based upon the description was that it might have been related to southern Indiana. Of course, as the show aired, it became apparent that it had nothing to do with even a soldier, much less a battle! I still maintain that they wasted money to go to Indiana to solve this when they could have done it from in front of the TV…nothing against Indiana lol, but a trip just was not necessary to solve this case :) I hope they at least got to see tour around some of the rest of the state to make the trip worthwhile.
It appears there are a number of cemeteries around Fishers, but I couldn't find any indication in a brief search as to which one this was filmed in.
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11:05 am
September 6, 2010
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CrowTRobot
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Cutter (sounds like a nickname for a serial killer):
It seems I saw a program a year of two ago that pretty much explained the whole 'cattle mutilations' theory. They took a dead cow, staked it down (I think so a preditor couldn't haul it off – or maybe those pesky aliens), and set up a camera to record. Their belief was that it would completely disappear, bones and all, within a week through simple natural causes. Much to their surprise, it was gone in only a couple of days. AND through the process, there did occur what looked like 'surgical cuttings'.
EDIT: Oh, and I like the fact that FoF is tromping through the snow looking for signs of ufo/aliens mutilating cattle because the rancher saw some lights over the hills back in August…
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11:11 am
September 6, 2010
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Nosfer
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I don't recall that program, but I do recall a MonsterQuest(?) episode where they set a deer out with a timelapse camera. It disappeared really quick. They went through to the end on it so I don't think they stopped in between to check for circular cuts, though.
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11:26 am
September 6, 2010
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CrowTRobot
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Nosfer,
It may have been the same show; they did use a time-lapse camera, and I almost said it was a deer, but assumed I had remembered incorrectly. I thought, however, that there was notice that some of the decaying looked much like surgical cutting – I could be wrong.
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11:55 am
September 7, 2010
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Revenant
| | Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage" | |
| Lead Investigator | posts 1393 |
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Nosfer said: "I don't recall that program, but I do recall a MonsterQuest(?) episode where they set a deer out with a timelapse camera. It disappeared really quick. They went through to the end on it so I don't think they stopped in between to check for circular cuts, though."
Don't hold me to this…but I think that MQ episode revolved around the "Skunk Ape." I believe the point was to show how quickly something decomposes out in the Everglades (or swamps in general) and why bones and such haven't been found for the creature.
Crow said: "…they did use a time-lapse camera, and I almost said it was a deer, but assumed I had remembered incorrectly. I thought, however, that there was notice that some of the decaying looked much like surgical cutting – I could be wrong."
I remember this too. Maybe MQ and for some reason…I'm remembering either Arkansas or Viginia as the location. No idea why those two states. But it was a cow.
There was also another show that featured a pig. It was easier to see the "surgical cutting (actually just naturally ocurring tears due to insects)" since the skin of the pig was smooth as opposed to a cows. I don't believe that was a MQ show though.
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"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
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