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S04E04: Ghost Fleet; Japanese River Monster

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8:00 am
September 30, 2010


Nosfer

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posts 2954

This week we round out the trip to Japan with two more investigations which probably took place during their swing through Haboro and Angkor Wat.

First of all we are off to Micronesia and the Chuuk Islands. During World War II these waters were a base of operation for the Japanese fleet in the South Pacific. Thanks to Operation Hailstone several dozen ships, including a dozen warships were sunk here, though it is thought that the Japanese had some advanced warning and the bulk of the ships had already put out to sea.

This is where the term Ghost Fleet in the title of one of tonight's episodes comes in, and Josh and crew perform what they call their first ever underwater investigation. Now, we've seen them in water several times looking for mermaids and singing along to the Monkees and looking for skeletons and any other excuse to show off diving prowess, so I have to assume that this "first ever" means the first ever where the entire investigation is underwater. (kinda hard to investigate sunken ships on land)

They are obviously not choosing this site because some yet-undiscovered creature has taken up residence within the hulls of the sunken ships so…yep…prepare for another ghost hunt.

I'm just going to come right out and say it, I bet we see more FLIR footage and I bet they take the evidence to J&G again. If I'm wrong, it's a small price to pay for not having to watch another fershlingen' crossover episode!

The second part will probably be the more interesting to me and to, I suspect, a few others SVites…more interesting in at least a relative if not absolute sense. In this half of tonight's program, the crew heads to Japan, er, stays over a few extra nights in Japan, and investigates the Kappa, a name meaning "child of the river". Depictions of the creature vary but one gets the sense of a mischievous water sprite that likes to pull pranks and has a sometimes tendency to pull passerbys into the river in which they live. A typical description is a creature the size of a child with scales and a beak and having a water-filled dish on it's head or forehead which is the source of its powers.

I don't think I've seen any GH episodes involving creatures with such a description so one would expect J&G's experience in this area to be minimal at best and it is for that reason that I say we are safe from a crossover for this particular part of tonight's entertainment.

Sit back, dig out some sushi and enjoy.

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9:42 am
September 30, 2010


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

The Kappa is a curious choice for DT.  There are much cooler and more ferocious monsters in Asia in which to choose from.  Anyway, if anyone is interested, here's a site that will tell you more about the Kappa then you would ever want to know:

http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/kappa.shtml

Nosfer off-handedly said: "(kinda hard to investigate sunken ships on land)"

Not if you're on that island in "Lost."  Didn't they have a "sunken ship" laying around on land?

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

9:58 am
September 30, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

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posts 2954

But, then, is it truly "sunken" or just "formerly sunk"? :)

There will be more investigations in the East, so hopefully….

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10:29 am
September 30, 2010


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

It would be an ex-sunken ship.  Tongue out

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

2:48 pm
September 30, 2010


blinddog

Special Agent Zombie Elimination Agency

Moderator

posts 857

Ships can sink on dry land. GAWD! Parallel universe? Does'nt anyone watch Fringe. Even Jason alluded to the theory that ghosts may be just passing between universes.
What higher paranormal authority do you need.

Double tap to the head. Don't become Undead.

12:11 am
October 1, 2010


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

@ BD – I haven't watched Fringe since the first season.  I got tired of the old guy having done 254,983 ground-breaking experiments "back in the day."

Ok…back to DT.

More FLIR fun.  The highly forgettable duo of whoever (honestly…I can never remember the names of those new guys who go off on their own) catch an image on the FLIR while in an old building.  They see the image, instantly stop and then do what any one of us here at SV would do…immediately begin an EVP session.  Of course…I mean…why, oh…I don't know…why not walk about 10 feet and look out that doorway? 

The image seemed to glow hot.  Not being able to see the temperature range and having to judge things through the psychedelic colors kind of makes things difficult.  But for all intents and purposes, it looked like a human figure, showed heat like a human figure, and then the human figure "disappeared" into the jungle…mostly because the human figure went behind the wall and then wasn't followed.

Even J&G had reservations about it…which I have to admit, took me by surprise.

The interesting tidbit thrown at us though was the "roar of the engines" while diving through a particular ship.  My first thought was that they are by tiny little islands…might be a hydrothermal vent laying around somewhere.  But…I'm at loss here.  I understand the basics behind fissures and such, but…I have no idea how they sound underwater.  I'm not a diver.  So…that's my guess.  Some sort of heated water making some noise through a small fissure.  Anyone else have some experience with this or have a better guess?

Part two, the Kappa…only one thing sort of stuck with me.  Right when they got into the flat boat, propelled by long poles…they see a fish and get all excited.  Then one of the nameless/faceless guys says "That was pretty big for a fish." in a disbelieving almost mocking tone.  I found that a very odd thing to say.  What sort of fish?  Fish can be quite large.  Larger than that boat that they were in.  Obviously he had never seen the show "River Monsters."

In fact…"River Monsters" did an excellent job a while back concerning a very unusual "monster" seen from an  airplane in Alaska.  The guy on the show asked tons of questions and figured out that what people were seeing was a White Sturgeon (the type is a bit rare).  It can be over 20 feet in length and over 1800 lbs!  Here's a picture of a "small one" that he caught.

So…not sure what the DT guy was getting at.  River fish can be extremely large.  Might be handy to know that if one is into cryptozoology and is going out into the field to "find the truth."  And speaking of handy things to know…what was all that nonsense about reeds being laid down and a certain location being a "lair."  Really?  What were they getting on about?  Reeds can't lay down due to a shift in the river mud or because of extreme height?  They need to be "pushed down" because something is making a lair?  Something that they can tell in the dark?  A Kappa lair?  Really?  Laughing 

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

6:29 am
October 1, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2954

In this case we were able to see bits of the scale for the FLIR. Blues were rather warm. I also noticed in a short span of time that emissivity changed from 0.95 to 0.79 so they were altering settings during the investigation. I hope they are trained in the equipment enough to know what they are altering and why. The 0.95 in a naturally vegetated area would not be a bad choice, I will have to look again at what the environment was with the 0.79, though. I _thought_ it was near the cave structure, in which case I'd probably have cranked it up a bit.

J&G dismissing the thermal image was interesting. They've shown far more dismissible evidence to a client when it comes to hot FLIR images.

This also goes to show something about contamination. Here was a case where they thought they were isolated yet the most likely explanation is a "local"? If so, what does that say about all the other times they claim they were in a clean environment?

Engine noises? Sounds travel very well underwater. I wouldn't even rule out engines from normal surface ships.

Creaks and sounds…well, any motion of the water could still cause the hulls to shift and I would say it would be a high possibility given the circumstances of it being a lagoon like that. Shadows and moving objects? Fish? They did say there were Tiger Sharks in the area. How prepared and well-equipped were various divers who said they saw things. Water pressure effects on the eyeball?

I think one of the interesting finds during the Kappa investigation was the bottle…drunk eyewitnesses?

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7:43 am
October 1, 2010


Patrick

Investigator

posts 190

I do alot of open water swimming.  When at the lake, I swim in a cove where my mother-in-law has a cabin.  I can hear the whine of boat engines from out in the middle of the lake long before I can see the boats coming, so sound does travel far underwater.  That being said, the sound underwater is typically a much higher pitch than what you would hear from the boat if you were not submerged, especially when the boat is farther away.   I am not an expert on larger boats, although at the lake you do get houseboats and really large ski boats, but the sound heard by DT last night was much deeper in pitch, and sounded like the engine would sound if on top of the water.  It would almost have to have been their own boat motor to sound like that, based on my own limited experience underwater.

7:46 am
October 1, 2010


Nosfer

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posts 2954

But…just dismissing an image because it's hot is a little presumptuous. Especially since all we have are very thin theories as to what the entity might be or how it might exist. And if the entity is manifesting by drawing in energy as they claim…I would EXPECT it to be warm. Delta T is proportional to delta e.

Afterall, GH, at least, keeps claiming ghosts are energy… In the rerun on Wednesday, Tango asked Steve if the EMFs were really of any use and Steve gave the explanation of "What are ghosts? Ghosts are energy so of course these are useful" (or words to that effect) So…why the disconnect in relating energy to temperature?

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9:53 am
October 1, 2010


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

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posts 1393

Nosfer said: "J&G dismissing the thermal image was interesting. They've shown far more dismissible evidence to a client when it comes to hot FLIR images.  This also goes to show something about contamination. Here was a case where they thought they were isolated yet the most likely explanation is a "local"? If so, what does that say about all the other times they claim they were in a clean environment?"

Your line about contamination really resonated with me.  If we (the SV "B" team) were to investigate a supposedly haunted location, how would we use the FLIR?  I think first, we'd upgrade the equipment.  The iSeries is fine for what it is actually intended for, but for our specific use, I would want the upgraded version that could detect and measure temperature of gases.  I always thought that volcanic gas had something to do with that image that we saw in an earlier episode of DT in Japan (the one with the forest on Mt Fuji that people would go to commit suicide in…can't remember the name).

I do not believe that we would use the FLIR as a "ghost detector."  That is not listed among its functions.  I believe that we would use it to prevent contamination.  If we saw a white-hot human figure while using it, our first thought wouldn't be "It's a ghost, let's do an EVP session" but…"Why is an unauthorized person in this zone while we're investigating?" 

For example, in last night's episode…the supposedly human image seen on the FLIR is only about 10 feet away.  After seeing it again…"if" human, how far could the person have gotten in that time?  Another 10 feet?  So…walk out that doorway, point the FLIR in that direction and odds are…you're still going to see him/her.  Not doing this…is extremely odd.  Not giving chase becomes very curious indeed and something that I was saying in my "FLIR or Foul?" thread.  This lack of action strikes me as suspicious.  Why don't they follow?  Because they got what they came for…a weird FLIR image…no reason to "debunk their own junk" when ambiguous evidence rules the day.  I mean why walk 10 feet and solve something?  That's not really their job, is it?

@ Patrick – Thanks for the personal experience info on sounds underwater.  Hydro-acoustics has always fascinated me.  Very complex.  I've wanted to study it, but…never had the time.  Anyway, the pitch of engines heard underwater that you mention is pretty interesting.  I've heard a bit of that in my VERY limited time in the water (I like land…not a fan of the water Tongue out ).  That's why I went beneath the waves and introduced the fissure theory.  I would "think" that the sound would be deeper…like a heavy engine. Hopefully, someone who reads this either lives by one or has vacationed somewhere and has actually heard things like this underwater.  But man…just scraping the surface of hydro-acoustics…that noise could be a host of things.  Maybe even a combination of sounds…I mean there is no reason to just assume that the sound is coming from a single source (if not paranormal, of course…but let's not throw that option on the table just yet…).

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

10:02 am
October 1, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

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posts 2954

The underwater EVP…wonder if they accounted for salinity etc to adjust the sound back to something of the same frequency that we would hear on land….?

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10:13 am
October 1, 2010


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

Laughing

Ok…you're seen their sound guy right?  Do you think he's capable of anything like that?  Laughing

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

10:16 am
October 1, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2954

You're not impressed with "what's his name", Mike?, either? Precisely why the "B" team needs to take over :) I'd give it one episode, though, before the whole lot would be shipped off to GHI!

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10:36 am
October 1, 2010


Patrick

Investigator

posts 190

I am sure there are alot of factors that would affect it though.  I am swimming in freshwater lakes, generally used only recreationally.  I am sure the salt water would have some effect, and perhaps also the size of the boat and the size of the body of water.  So it is certainly possible that, in the surroundings they were in last night, the sounds they heard would have distinctly different qualities than what I am accustomed to hearing.  I have done races and swims in the Ohio River as well, and we are right on the canal for barge traffic, but I do recall the pitch still being higher for those barges than the above-surface sound. 

The sounds heard on DT last night sounded exactly like engine sounds, with no adjustment for the underwater effects.  Almost like DT knew they had to have easily recognizable engine sounds to hook the audience and did not want to take the time to explain the differences of sound underwater. 

11:06 am
October 1, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

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posts 2954

Many factors are going to effect the ultimate sound. Size of ship, shape of ship. Water temperature…then you've got rudder noise, waves slapping off the hull, propeller cavitation, engine room noise etc Start throwing all these together and that's how acoustic signatures are developed for ship classes for purposes of identification based just on sound.

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12:01 pm
October 1, 2010


Patrick

Investigator

posts 190

Right, but all those factors affect the sound.  If you believe DT, there were no boats in the area so if it was a boat it had to be farther away.  The sound heard by DT sounded too suspiciously like what you would hear above water and within reasonable proximity to the boat.  That was my point.  Or maybe it was just the 3 or 4 Steelhead Double IPA's I had by that time…..  :)

12:20 pm
October 1, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

Moderator

posts 2954

Patrick said:

If you believe DT, there were no boats in the area so if it was a boat it had to be farther away. 


And didn't they also say they thought they were the only ones around where they caught the thermal of what they later determined to be a "local" :)

Pretty funny them bringing this evidence to J&G who have absolutely no underwater experience that I'm aware of. (Staged-for-camera "plumbing" scenes do not count lol)

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4:34 pm
October 1, 2010


Nosfer

Rotaredom

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posts 2954

Revenant said:

I always thought that volcanic gas had something to do with that image that we saw in an earlier episode of DT in Japan (the one with the forest on Mt Fuji that people would go to commit suicide in…can't remember the name).


Not to be confusing (DT, not me) but I believe the title of that episode was Haunted Forest…not to be confused with the infamous Haunted Forest in Romania.

I'd have to dig that episode up, but if I remember right, the object/entity/whatever was seen very near a tree with quite a bit of other vegetation around…more trees etc? Volcanic gases being released would have a rather noticeable effect on surrounding vegetation. Not sure how far from Fuji that particular event was, but I'd imagine a level of sulfur associated with it that I would HOPE they could have nosed out :)

Certainly a case where the more advanced FLIRs would be of use…noting the temperature of what ever was seen. Other detectors/sniffers would also be of use in a situation like this.

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1:14 am
October 2, 2010


Revenant

Hopelessly Locked In A "Fear Cage"

Lead Investigator

posts 1393

Nosfer said: "Certainly a case where the more advanced FLIRs would be of use…noting the temperature of what ever was seen. Other detectors/sniffers would also be of use in a situation like this."

Yes, I'm a big believer in ruling things out scientifically.  I could be absolutely wrong about the volcanic gas…but I'd like to be sure.  And bringing the right equipment and using it correctly could do just that.

Oh…back to the mysterious engine noise…I'm now starting to wonder if the crazy amount of metal and obstructions (boats, planes, whatever else) in the water may be causing a normal sound, like a boat, to reverberate and bounce around like crazy.  I mean this isn't a normal, cleared area.  Maybe the sheer amount of junk in the water is playing a role.  Man I wish I took some classes on sound… Frown

"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer

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