So, am I the only one who was not in the least bit surprised when, yet again, Josh takes his evidence to J&G for analysis? I can understand SyFy wanting to keep this cross-promotion bit going, but I'm wondering how difficult it was for Josh to proclaim them as "the foremost authorities on paranormal investigation" or something equally laughable.
"In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual." -Galileo Galilei
The Egyptian government gives DT unsupervised access to one of their greatest treasures.
The Russians give them unfettered access to Chernobyl, (which is still radioactive), site of one of their biggest embarrassments.
Something just doesn't seem kosher. Maybe I'm just being skeptical.
You have a point. If I were to pick the most unlikely, it would probably be Chernobyl. Which, I guess, is somewhat odd knowing Egypt's reputation of unworldly red-tape to get things done. (There is a discussion going on about it in Oubliette's article, so I'll leave that there)
If it were Russia, then I would be totally shocked. But Chernobyl is actually in the Ukraine. Russia is east of it. Ukraine became independent (again) after the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991. As for the "embarrassment" factor, well, that's a very difficult one to address.
There are two theories as to why the Chernobyl disaster happened. The first places blame upon the operators. There is evidence of this. Also, this would, in some way, place the blame upon the people running the plant, basically Ukrainians. The second theory is that of flawed design problems. There is a mountain of this type of evidence which would place the blame more on the USSR or Russia in particular. After experts examined those design plans…I can't see how one can't lean towards that explanation. Factor in an authoritarian Soviet bureaucracy bent upon party loyalty over competence (not properly training the plants operators and promoting the wrong people)…and you are headed for a monumentally tragic event. (For the record, I just kind of summed things up here. The actual reasons and theories are much more complex. If interested, there's a pretty good book out there called "The Truth About Chernobyl" by G. Medvedev.)
So I believe that the Ukraine's perspective over the Chernobyl disaster would be very much different than Russia's. If Chernobyl was within Russian borders, I do not believe that DT could have gained access. The Ukraine, I believe, wants people to remember the catastrophe. The lives lost and the lessons, hopefully learned, should not be forgotten.
"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
Give Gates credit for having the nerve to head into the Exclusion Zone. It’s eerie territory. You wouldn't catch me around there.
From what I understand, though, visitors aren’t at all uncommon. People have been touring the area for years; access isn’t difficult, nor dangerous. Check YouTube and you'll find several on-site videos. Roughly 3,000 individuals still work in the Zone, as a matter of fact. A quarter-century after the reactor accident, radiation levels aren’t considered particulalry lethal. So it seems to me that the trip wasn't nearly as dangerous as DT portrayed it. Too dangerous for me, but I'm not getting paid to visit exotic spots.
Beyond the overall preimise, this espisode left me with a few questions:
The suits: Unlike typical atomic tourists, who sport around the Zone in street clothes. Gates and his paranormal posse required full radiation suits, complete with scary-looking Half Life masks and filters. Unless you're getting really close to the reactor, the suits don't seem necessary (other than to lend dramatic effect). Since I'm no scientist, I could be missing something here.
The dosimeter: Gates claimed the protective gear would help them remain in Prypiat longer. If this was the case, then why was he wearing a dosimeter outside his suit — wouldn't you wear the meter inside you suit, to measure your actual exposure? When the instrument sounded that they’d reached their radiation limit, didn't Gates and his crew depart every bit as soon as they would have without protective clothing? As I said, I'm no scientist, so I might be mistaken about the way these things operate.
The FLIR camera: According to Gates, his FLIR was mysteriously malfunctioning all night long, and picking up inexplicable anomalies. Is this surprising, considering that infrared cameras monitor heat, which is essentially radiation? I don't wonder that Gates found weird signatures registering on the device. Then again, I'm no IR expert, so I could be wrong.
The creeped-out woman: One woman on the team kept saying she was “creeped out,” and finally she fled from a building screaming. Well, yeah. Things might have appeared less creepy during daytime (when most people report seeing ghosts). Yet Gates insisted on stumbling around a derelict urban nuclear-disaster site wearing big, goofy smocks and oversized boots and full-face helmets, lugging along a metric buttload of cumbersome techno-toys — in the dark. I might not be a scientist, but even I know how dangerous — and scary — abandoned structures can be, especially at night.
Presumably, thermal-imaging footage makes for better reality than natural light.
Sorry, but the road to destination truth doesn’t run through Warwick, Rhode Island.
"We'll eat their brains after we fix the spaceship!"
Well i don't know the politics invovled, i can't understand why Josh has to go to Jay and Grant to have something anilyzed.There are all sorts of labs at universities, even Eastman Kodak they can go to to have photos scurtinized,whatever.DT doesn't have to go to GH to have the stuff looked over.
If they keep this up, they may kill DT and Josh's career.
Jeal is her name, right? The creeped out woman? She not professional, she's not calm, she's not highly intellegent and she doesn't seem to be very strong to help carry things or very good with cameras. She freaks out all the time. Why is she on the show? The only reason I can think of is that Gates likes her and likes being the protective guy. And I think you're right about them over dramatising the danger. They stopped at the Chernobyl Cafe or whatever it was called so they must get tourists. I found this while browsing the random web. It's pictures someone took of Chernobyl. If you notice, they're not wearing suits.
That's interesting. I'm definitely guessing they wore the suits to play up the danger factor after seeing those pictures.
HollyDolly, I agree. I wish they would have some outside, non-paranormal community involved, source analyzing their evidence. Unfortunately, Josh and team probably don't have a lot of say in who analyzes for them. I think the evidence they found here would not hold up under more scientific scrutiny. And it still makes me laugh, the referral to J&G being the experts in their field. That's like calling Colonel Sanders a gourmet chef just because he could fry chicken!
"In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual." -Galileo Galilei
The woman in DT is a complete distraction. What with Josh in his seemingly perpetual hightened sense of "tHe sky is falling" – and her Screaming Mimi routine, it really does play as more of a sit-com than anything remotely approaching a "scientic investigation".
As I stated about a year ago, the whole investigations only conducted in the dark is a pure conceit. Again I ask, are ghosts afraid of 60-watt light bulbs?!
Fictional paranormal-based TV series ("The X-Files", "Millennium") often had lengthy scenes in low light environments as a way to make things "scary". That GH and DT also do this sort of leads one to a certain conclusion about how legit any of this actually is.
Beyond the overall preimise, this espisode left me with a few questions:
Sully, within your post, you stated several times that you were not a scientist. As luck may have it, I am. I've run several Research & Development labs throughout my career. I have handled various types of radioactive materials and have worn many swanky radiation suits. So, I know a bit about radiation, so perhaps I can help to answer a few of your questions.
Sully said
From what I understand, though, visitors aren’t at all uncommon. People have been touring the area for years; access isn’t difficult, nor dangerous. Check YouTube and you'll find several on-site videos. Roughly 3,000 individuals still work in the Zone, as a matter of fact. A quarter-century after the reactor accident, radiation levels aren’t considered particulalry lethal. So it seems to me that the trip wasn't nearly as dangerous as DT portrayed it. Too dangerous for me, but I'm not getting paid to visit exotic spots.
The suits: Unlike typical atomic tourists, who sport around the Zone in street clothes. Gates and his paranormal posse required full radiation suits, complete with scary-looking Half Life masks and filters. Unless you're getting really close to the reactor, the suits don't seem necessary (other than to lend dramatic effect). Since I'm no scientist, I could be missing something here.
My grandmother, like all grandmothers I think, would always say "If everyone jumped off the bridge, would you?" Personally, if I went to Chernobyl, I would wear a suit and not care what the idiot next to me is wearing. And in twenty years, when he has thyroid cancer, he'll wonder why.
There are too many unknowns to chance it. Something may give underground, thus springing water that's still contaminated (unlikely, but you never know). A structure may collapse and release some heavy metals into the air. Someone may move something in one part town, the wind catches the dust and blows it your way. Too many variables. It's going to be two hundred years before the 1.5 mile Exclusion Zone is declared safe. As for the #4 reactor, the one that melted down…some estimate 20,000 years (I think that's a bit high, but really…whether it's 10,000 or 20,000 years…does it matter? Still a long time…)
Some will argue that the radiation levels are low enough to be "somewhat safe." There have been many studies done and are still being done. The problem is long term effects. It could be years until something pops up, and then you have to "prove" that is was due to radiation exposure. Think of it like the second-hand smoke argument. It's bad, but can you prove long term effects attributed to it? Some say yes, some say no. In any event…I'd wear the suit. And for record…I'd also be standing on the bridge watching everyone else nose-dive.
Sully asked:
The dosimeter: Gates claimed the protective gear would help them remain in Prypiat longer. If this was the case, then why was he wearing a dosimeter outside his suit — wouldn't you wear the meter inside you suit, to measure your actual exposure? When the instrument sounded that they’d reached their radiation limit, didn't Gates and his crew depart every bit as soon as they would have without protective clothing? As I said, I'm no scientist, so I might be mistaken about the way these things operate.
Yes, you would want it on the outside of the suit. Why? It provides you a longer reaction time. If the radiation levels are getting high, you want to get away before it penetrates your suit. If the dosimeter was on the inside…you would already be in the process of being exposed. The point of the radiation suit is safety. Those without the suit, they are being exposed the minute they enter the zone. If they encounter a hot spot, they are getting the full exposure immediately.
And…if you're wearing a suit, you can't move as fast as someone without, so you would be in the zone longer. Thus, his claim of being able to stay in the zone longer is technically true. Although, it is a bit dramatic and I didn't see the point in him stating it.
Sully said:
The FLIR camera: According to Gates, his FLIR was mysteriously malfunctioning all night long, and picking up inexplicable anomalies. Is this surprising, considering that infrared cameras monitor heat, which is essentially radiation? I don't wonder that Gates found weird signatures registering on the device. Then again, I'm no IR expert, so I could be wrong.
I am not expert nor have I been trained using the FLIR (Forward Looking Infrared) camera. With that being said, I can confirm one part of your question. Radiation is the process of heat transfer via electromagnetic waves. When using the FLIR, one can see the effects of conduction and convection, but you can also see radiation. Radiation does not need a medium to travel through. The sun heats the earth with radiation that has traveled through space. When we walk by a fire, we feel the heat primarily through radiation.
Although I am not sure if his FLIR was malfunctioning "all night long" it did have its moments. Then again, it also had its moments in Romania as well (in the Circle of Not So Certain Death… ). Maybe it just needs to be looked at. After all, it probably does take a beating from all the traveling and extreme weather conditions.
Sully said:
The creeped-out woman: One woman on the team kept saying she was “creeped out,” and finally she fled from a building screaming. Well, yeah. Things might have appeared less creepy during daytime (when most people report seeing ghosts). Yet Gates insisted on stumbling around a derelict urban nuclear-disaster site wearing big, goofy smocks and oversized boots and full-face helmets, lugging along a metric buttload of cumbersome techno-toys — in the dark. I might not be a scientist, but even I know how dangerous — and scary — abandoned structures can be, especially at night.
Presumably, thermal-imaging footage makes for better reality than natural light.
I totally agree. If there was ever an episode to do during the day time, this was it. I used to call radiation suits…"suits of unlimited suck." They are heavy, hot, and cumbersome. Walking around in a hot zone, in the dark, in a building that may come down at any moment…I think I'm just going to go ahead and pass on that one…
Alright…so there you go. Hope that helped a little…
"Skepticism is not a position, it's a process." -Dr Michael Shermer
Not too much to add here other than that the term Chernobyl will always cause me to pause as I was about 1000 miles away when it happened…quite a distance, really, but when you see people reading newspapers that have concentric circles extending to where you are and headlines about a "Nuclear Disaster in Russia" and stories where they are concerned that anyone was even alive in KIEV(!), well, you do get a bit concerned :)
As far as the FLIR and the other equipment going whacko there, I'm not surprised at all. Revenant talked about it above about transference and there is still enough there to wreak havoc on instruments, especially if things get kicked up by walking, falling etc. It's a similar concept to some of the things in DS1 where I remember a news reporters being ticked (Awwwww!) about how the night vision cameras were having a helluva time filming the take offs of from the carrier…all the EW interference, especially from the Prowlers LOL Radiation is going to do the same thing despite what I think one of the fellows said that that shouldn't be causing that effect.
I also wonder about the possibility of the permanent shadow effect taking place there? I've not heard of it at Chernobyl but who knows.
As for the images of people, though, both of them sure looked like reflections to me. The whole crew was pretty jumpy and may not have been rationalizing things the best way. As far as the experts opinions on those images, well, that and a nickel won't even get you directions to a good coffee!
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Not that I approve of the GH tie in for evidence revewing, still I wondered that Josh did not bring up the "arm pull." Seems to be something right up GH alley.
I also thought the FLIR images were reflections. The shadow outlines matched the radiation suits the crew were wearing.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." – Dr. Seuss
Not that I approve of the GH tie in for evidence revewing, still I wondered that Josh did not bring up the "arm pull." Seems to be something right up GH alley.
Probably because it wasn't something that they could scrutinize…the reflections were external (supposedly) to the group so it was something that could be brought to them to ask about what it was…the arm pulling, well, it was arm pulling (leg pulling? lol), not much that anyone (GH or otherwise) could say about it. Another "personal" story. It was caught on film, but not much else that could be done about it.
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In my review, I make mention of the fact that it doesn't seem that hard to go into the Chernobyl Zone. One has to sign a legal release form that the Ukrainian Government cannot be held responsible for anything negative that may happen–either now or in the future. My guess is not too many people want to take their vacation there. Actually, some people have moved back in on their own, living in areas with normal/low radiation readings.
On the other hand, you have to compare the 2 locations: In Egypt, these are National Treasures; a museum of sorts. And no museum is left unguarded. I truly believe the DT was being watched the whole time.
With Chernobyl, the biggest suspicion about the DT team was their equipment. Cold war paranoia still prevails. In keeping with the "openness", people are let in to show the government has nothing to hide. But as with Egypt, I don't for a minute think that no one was watching them. Foreigners (esp. from the US) with cameras and all sorts of meters–the government is naturally suspicious.
Note: For those interested as I am terrible in this disaster, there was a show on Discovery a few years back called "Disaster at Chernobyl". It provides a re-enactment of that terrible day, interspersed with interviews with the survivors. It moved me when I first saw it and still does but as far as I know the entire show is not available on DVD or download.
There are 6 videos on YouTube which cover the incident right before and after the reactor mishap. It is very chilling (though the videos don't have all the interpretations in English but the point is gotten across). I think it is a fair and balanced view of who was responsible and why this occurred. Here's the URL of the first one. Then just click on the remaining parts:
Revenant, just checking back in and saw your post. Thanks so much for the clarifications! Your explanations make good sense.
Regarding the suits, I totally agree. Were I to go to Chernobyl (which I wouldn't), I'd certainly wear a suit. What amused me was Gates' rationale, that they were wearing them in order to stay longer in the Zone. There's nothing wrong with admitting that you just want to be careful. I mean, Christ, it's only the site of history's biggest civil nuclear disaster. Maybe Gates did say that he wanted to be cautious as well; I haven't reviewed the segment again. What struck with me, though, was his duration explanation. That didn't seem genuine. That's why I questioned the dosimeter position, because it just didn't appear to support his expressed intent. As you say, from a safety standpoint, outside the suit is the only place to wear it.
Since the episode, I've done some more reading about the Zone. What a tragic, incredible place, fascinating in morbid sort of way, as are all disasters. Absent human interference, nature is healing itself, at least to a certain extent. What's surprising to me is the amount of variation in radiation levels within the Zone itself, and how normal much of the flora an fauna appear, at least superficially, not to mention the number of individuals who continue to work there each day. There's a lot of research going on. The Zone has become a sort of a laboratory for studies of nuclear contamination and urban decay. It's no comfort to Chernobyl's victims, but at least scientists are learning from the accident's after-effects.
So happens I've been on a nuclear site once, the clean-up project in Hanford, Washington. Wore a card dosimeter and received a note from the DOE later documenting my rad exposure. Minimal, but it still scared the snot out of me.
"We'll eat their brains after we fix the spaceship!"
Gh and others have stated this theory that battery drain happens because the ghosts use the power to manifest or to move something or make sounds. Sounds reasonable as far as theories go.
Jael even had a battery die in one of her cameras, I believe.
My question is this. At this site where the radiation (power) is through the roof, why is this location not a ghost Mecca? If ghosts need power to manifest, it is there in abundance. But yet, hardly any sign of ghost activity.
Doesn't this blow that theory out of the water?
Maybe the GH team should go there, or better yet, someone reputable to test this theory.
Knowing GH, they would somehow get a leak in their suits.
Gh and others have stated this theory that battery drain happens because the ghosts use the power to manifest or to move something or make sounds. Sounds reasonable as far as theories go.
Jael even had a battery die in one of her cameras, I believe.
My question is this. At this site where the radiation (power) is through the roof, why is this location not a ghost Mecca? If ghosts need power to manifest, it is there in abundance. But yet, hardly any sign of ghost activity.
Doesn't this blow that theory out of the water?
Maybe the GH team should go there, or better yet, someone reputable to test this theory.
Knowing GH, they would somehow get a leak in their suits.
See my response to your similar post in the Chernobyl comments area about not all power being created equal. It takes the same testing of a theory to blow it out of the water as it does to confirm it and a simple "nothing happened here" doesn't really do that.
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Thus, his claim of being able to stay in the zone longer is technically true. Although, it is a bit dramatic and I didn't see the point in him stating it.
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