September 4, 2008

GH: Iron Island Museum

With a few strong investigations under their belt, the GHI team promptly racked up disappointments and frustrated their viewers to an incredible extent.  The return of more Ghost Hunters episodes with investigations conducted by the original TAPS team we've come to know (and love?) was always going to be something to look forward to, but I couldn't have imagined just how much I'd been looking forward to it until I actually saw the credits rolling. In fact, TAPS kicked off this next batch with a full-episode investigation that one might say actually knocked my socks off.  It didn't, I'm still wearing them, but it really was that good.

I will say though, that I'm glad I wasn't eating anything at the very start of this episode or else I might have choked to death on it in disbelief when I saw Grant and Jay reprising yet again their supposed role as Roto-Rooter plumbers who happen to bring a camera crew around with them everywhere they go just in case they get a call from the TAPS office on their cellphone.  Grant: "We're just finishing up with a condensate line here and then we'll come over and talk about it."  Good thing you guys are out making real money for a living while Kris & Co. are living it up in the cushy office you paid for with your hard-earned plumbing money, guys.  Kudos on being able to have cameras running to film both ends of that conversation, despite the impromptu nature of the matter.

Lest I get too deep into the annoying the staged bits of the show (which cause us to suspect other bits of the show may be "re-enacted" as well), I'm going to let the matter stand here because — after all, the lead-in is just the lead-in and the main event here is well worth sitting through the opening band.

The Iron Island Museum in Buffalo, New York is nothing exciting.  Architecturally, it can't hold a candle to a single site GHI investigated this season. The most interesting thing about the building is that it was originally a Church and still has a vaulted ceiling in the attic and original stained glass windows up there as well.  The most interesting historical detail also seems rather boring when compared to what GHI has been up to.  No brutal murders or armies clashing, the most interesting thing that happened here is that the Church became a funeral home.  On a coincidental note, one of the museum's volunteer's recalled that her little brother died just shy of age seven and was laid out in that very building back in the late 1960's.  They did have a special in memorium section just for him.

The contents of the museum were equally unremarkable.  I mean no offense to those who put their time into maintaining and growing the museum, simply that they are not housing any great works of art — it is a cultural museum meant to preserve some basic history of their little corner of the world, specifically as relates to railroads (how they got their name) and now military history.

As usual, during the tour they were told about the experiences that happened to others in the building and one of them struck a chord with me: One of the women who volunteers there (and told her experience directly to the GH production team's camera — I always like a first-hand story better than second-hand one) found a picture frame on the floor one day, apparently just standing up like it belonged there.  She thought it was odd but just picked it up and put it back on the table.  The thing is, the same thing happened multiple times and eventually she started getting freaked out.  I mean, if it fell off the table that would be one thing, but who would pick up a picture frame and place it standing on the floor, again and again?

Certainly, there is always the age-old possibility that someone was playing a joke on her, but if we could rule that out (and we cannot) then there's really no other straightforward reason I can think of that anyone would take a single picture frame and place it on the floor.  It just seems like a completely odd thing for someone to do.

Another woman who volunteered there got increasingly uncomfortable after "feeling" someone — possibly children — was in the room with her and had to leave.  This stood out to me in quite the opposite way from the first story: someone left because they had a "feeling" and someone is supposed to investigate that?  How do you have a "feeling" that "children" are in the room?  I could understand hearing children, but this story just had me thinking "…and ?"

This oddness followed them into the basement, where their host told them there had been "talk of" and nasty, angry man and "talk of" children.  What does this mean, "talk of" ??  What reason do people believe specifically that there is a "man" who is "nasty" and "angry" and/or "children" haunting the basement?  Saying there has been "talk of" is just about the least helpful, least specific report I've ever seen someone give to TAPS on any of their investigations.  It may be just the way they cut it, perhaps she elaborated and we just weren't shown the footage, but I was just shaking my head and shrugging at this point in the tour.

…and I continued to be confused as she talked about a "Shadow Man" that has been seen around the building.  In one particular case she gave a very detailed account how someone had seen this "Shadow Man" go down a specific hallway and look into a room, and I'm wondering how you can tell a shadow man is "looking" into a room.  I mean, was he standing at the edge of the doorway and leaning inwards?  If you could see enough detail to make out the eyes or even the head turning, doesn't that make this not a "Shadow Man" ?

She even said that the individual in questions ran up to find no one in the area and all of the doors were still locked.  To me, it seems that if someone saw this much activity from a distance and still checked the doors, then he must have thought it was a real person that he'd been seeing.  "Shadow Men" on the other hand are fairly consistently reported to be like freestanding shadows (often in the shape of a man) where no shadow should be. I'm wondering if the "Shadow Man" aspect was added in later, because when people report seeing these things it's usually in the context that they immediately recognized it was not an actual person and it totally freaked them out — as opposed to your average "ghost" report, where someone sees someone in another room (who they believe to be a living, breathing human being) and then  subsequently discover the person to have vanished into thin air.

Kristyn Gartland accompanied the TAPS team on this investigation and while she was doing an interview with the camera about the little boy who had died (and how, as a mother she couldn't imagine losing a child) we get out first sign that this episode is actually going to be a whole lot more interesting than one might have first expected.  While she is talking there is a sound, and replaying the tape you can see a glint of light over her right shoulder.  It would seem that the main door to the building opened and shut behind her while she was talking.

Pilgrim diligently went through their footage and it turned out they actually had video of their host locking that door.  Not only that, but the door had little square windows set into it and TAPS had draped a blanket over it to block out any light from outside that might interfere with the investigation.  The blanket covered both doors from what I could see, which basically rules out someone actually slipping through that door in the short amount of time before Kris, Kristyn and their camera operator reacted.  Literally, everyone was facing in that direction except Kristyn — and unfortunately she was standing in between the camera and the door (facing the camera as she spoke) but Kris Williams apparently had a clear view and she saw what she described as a shadow move from right to left and through the door.

Certainly, without a key the only way to unlock the door would be from the inside, and the door was in fact unlocked when they got to it.  There seems to be very little question as to whether the door opened and closed: I would say it definitely did.  The question is, was it opened and closed by a living, breathing human being?  The blanket, which was still in place when the girls opened the door a moment later, would seem to suggest otherwise.  Someone would have to be extraordinarily quick and nimble to turn the deadbolt, open the door and duck underneath the blanket, all while a camera was pointed in their general direction, but quick enough not to get caught.

Jay & Grant where in the van monitoring at the time and no one on the crew was supposed to be by the front door.  I don't think they completely ruled out a person slipping out that door and then running down the block or hiding around the corner, which is unfortunate.  Still, if that was someone hoaxing then it was one of the most simultaneously brilliantly simple, audaciously risky and smoothly executed hoaxing attempts I've ever heard of.  With Kris Williams having a clear view and the camera just barely missing the money shot, I'm basically left thinking that this would almost require a TAPS hoaxing conspiracy to pull off, because who would even attempt that considering the risk of being caught in the act?

A short while later, Jay & Gran were doing an interactive EVP session with their always-on K2 meter when they started to get when they believed to be responses (after telling the spirits to wave their hand in front of the device).  In fact, they got a much bigger response then I've ever seen them get on the blasted little device — at one point the light stopped flickering on and off and simply went solid and approached the top of the scale.  We've discussed at length how there is absolutely no science behind the claim that any EMF radiation it is picking up is ghosts, but still that's a heckuva signal to suddenly pick up out of nowhere in the middle of a room.

J&G asked for more activity, and suddently there was now banging (like footsteps) coming from the attic.  They assigned Dave Tango & Steve Gonsalves to keep investigating the EMF while they checked out what the heck was up in the attic, and Dave & Steve did manage to find an unshielded copper wire running along the basement ceiling which was giving off a high EMF read.  Still, the read they were getting was consistent, while the read Jay & Grant got was nil originally and then fluctuated and grew.

Grant climbed the ladder and popped his head through the small opening that gave access to the attic area. He used the FLIR for a few minutes until they satisfied themselves that there weren't rats or racoons running around up there.  After that they unfortunately seemed to put it away and opt for no video recording equipment in the attic — which is even more disappointing (or convenient) considering what came next: The thumping continued and Grant reported that some of them even sounded like they were right next to him, but he couldn't see anything making them and there wasn't even any floor on which to walk — just rafters.

What happened next was Grant said something blocked out the light of one of the far windows and that the shadow appeared to be moving straight towards him.  He scooched down to clear his head out of the attic, afraid it might be an animal or something that could hurt him.  This was accompanied by rapid thumps/footsteps that they said seemed to originate from the far area of the attic and move rapidly towards Grant.

At around this same time, Grant said he heard what sounded like an old man whispering.  I'm curious how anyone can differentiate an "old man" whispering from anyone else whispering, but that's another question entirely. Grant also later heard what he thought was an "older woman saying something", which Jay also heard but said he thought it sounded like a sight and didn't hear any words.

After seeing all this excitement second-hand Jay had to experience the attic for himself, so he popped his head up there and reported that he also was seeing something occasionally block out the light of that window, but he couldn't make out what it was.  Why no one offered them a DVR camera or even a flashlight is beyond my comprehension.  It's sloppy investigating at best and calculated showmanship at worst.

They then sent Dave Tango into the attic with a camera guy, which was nice except nothing happened.  It looked like he was in there for a while too, but nothing whatsoever occurred.  If there really was something, like an animal, that J&G had seen it's possible that two people actually climbing all the way into the attic (instead of just sticking their heads up through a hole in the ceiling) might have scared it into hiding.  The excuse on the ghostly end of things was that perhaps the spirits had expended all their energy interacting with Jay & Grant.

Well, maybe not.  There were a few EVPs and these were some of the best I have yet heard.  There was one that seemed to be a male voice saying, "Whaddya want?" in response to Jay & Grant and that woman's voice they both heard was captured as well, although what she was saying is unclear (assuming it really is a woman's voice and not just the human brain interpreting it that way).  When their host heard it she said the voice sounded familiar and she believed the language to be Polish, although she didn't explain why.

The coup de'grace though, was an EVP recorded when Tango was frustrated (and cursing) up in the attic, thinking he was getting no response.  The recording is as clear as I've ever heard and I don't think there can be much doubt it is a voice saying, "LEAVE ME ALONE".  In fact, it sounds exactly like you'd expect it to if someone wrote this episode as an episiode script and sent it to the audio effects department.

Honestly, I'm not sure what to think.  This is about as definitive as TAPS has ever gotten, and I'm very excited about it but I can't help but have reservations.  That last EVP could almost be described as "too perfect", the door opening and closing right in front of three people and a camera seems too risky to even attempt.  I don't know whether to be astounded by or suspicious of the evidence our favorite Ghost Hunters collected during this investigation, but it certainly made for good TV.

Filed under Ghost Hunters, Posts by Logisti

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Comments on GH: Iron Island Museum »

September 4, 2008

dawn @ 7:41 pm

Thank you so much for the updates! I was so dissapointed with the Spring episodes that I didn't even watch last night's. I was sure that it would be nothing, but now I wish I would have watched. But, thanks to you, at least I have some clue of what's going on! Thanks again :) dawn

TP @ 8:09 pm

Great episode. Tango's prelim to his cursing had me laughing out loud! The neck twitch was great.

Awesome EVPs. Glad the big boys are back.

I rolled my eyes when Grant jumped in the attic, but maybe, just maybe he did see something.

Lar @ 8:50 pm

Maybe Grant should grab hold of what could be his new marketing campaign,
"Duck Dude. Duck!" They briefly use their blobboflexipedometer in the attic to read heat, but seeing nothing they revert to Grant's truthful eyes. The moment they do, whatta' surprise… Grant SEES something. He isn't sure what is, but it comes running towards him so he pulls his head out from the hole in the ceiling just before the spirit decapitates him. C'mon Grant take one for the team!

When Tango climbs into the attic cursing out the spirit he records what sounds like "Leave me alone." But as stated above, it's too perfect. Tango, minus the sci fi camera guy was alone. The evp contains static. Not white noise, but static. The EVP comes at just the right moment as Tango asks the spirit to tell him to leave. Maybe he should've asked the spirit to curse him out. THAT would've been an evp. Extra Vulgar Phenom.

Notice too, while Tango & the sci fi guy are in the attic, NOTHING happens, or is caught visually (as usual). I've created a new category for EVPS. Each Video Potential Sucks.

As for the front door opening you really couldn't see it and doors do this all time because they AREN'T latched, or locked even if you think they are.

blinddog50 @ 9:03 pm

That was J and Tango in the van.
Grant nowhere to be seen…hmmm.
Black blanket on the OUTSIDE of the door…hmmmm
Grant going and unlocking the door during setup…possible.
Recorders visible while J & Grant do attic check and recording whispering evp's while out of camera shot…NO…hmmm.

Conspiracy?…there was a second gunman on the grassy knoll.

Jef @ 10:20 pm

so Logisti, you're telling me you don't have a camera crew following you around in case you get a call from the TAPS office? Huh… That makes the one following me around seem extra superfluous.

TP you are so on, the Tango neck-crack before swearing was AWESOME. I've decided to do it every time I swear.

My ears perked up a little more than usual when the hostess said that one EVP sounded like it might be Polish or something. Funny thing, I speak polish and lived around it for several years and can't for the life of me figure what it was in that EVP that made her think that. I ran it back several times but came up with nothing.

The others sounded like what I would at least call an EVP. No jumbled whispers, no "yyyyyyyeeeeeeeesssssssss" or some inaudible nothing that I couldn't make out. Props for that. As for the validity, I can't be 100 percent sure. Lets just say I'm a bit skeptical.

All in all a good episode. I hope we can get at least a few more solid ones this fall.

September 5, 2008

Brandon @ 4:07 am

Logisti,

Great review as always. The plumbing bits are so irritating that I have to fast forward through them now. I don’t understand why Kris can’t just tell Jay and Grant at the conference table as they have done in the past.

Here are my thoughts on the door. If we assume for the moment that the door was actually unlocked then it is quite plausible that someone from the outside simply pulled the black cloth back, turned the knob, and opened the door. It was upwards of 30 seconds (perhaps longer) before the girls walked to the door to check outside, plenty of time to run away.

While Kris originally stated “obviously I didn’t see someone through the doorway, whoever I saw was inside with us”, she later stated that “it was so real, I thought someone was outside.” Her belief was that the black cloth outside the door proved that she couldn’t have seen someone through the glass, despite the fact that it was only taped with a few pieces of gaffer’s tape, and moved quite easily when they both opened the door.

What was also overlooked was that Kris saw something block out the lights coming from the door. Grant quickly states that must have been a reflection, but if that were the case the sudden light source in the room would have been obvious to the several people standing just a few feet away. Again, the more likely source of this light is in fact from the outside behind the black cloth, revealed upon being moved.

The final point I noticed is that had a black shadow been in the room, moving from the center of the door to the left of the door as Kris had described, it seems quite odd to me that Kris didn’t say something immediately. It wasn’t until after the door closed and several seconds went by, before she reacted. If she didn’t see the figure until the door closed, then it is quite possible that the figure was never actually in the room.

I believe that she did actually see someone outside the door the entire time. Between the darkness of the hallway and the black cloth blocking out the light, she was confused by the apparent shadow, but she was convinced that someone was in fact outside. I know it seems like a very simple explanation, but with their history of people messing with the investigations, it is certainly a possibility.

Now for my skeptic view. When Kristyn called Jay, Grant was not in the van. He did appear when both Jay and Grant went to investigate the front door. His absence, while easily explainable, was never explained. The standard location call (whereby each member identifies where they are) was either never done or not shown on camera. There are several TAPS members that easily could have opened this door, either by accident (not realizing an interview was happening) or on purpose. It also seems quite odd to me that Pilgrim would go through the trouble of recording a close-up of the door being locked, which would only be used as a rebuttal to just such a scene. This shot just seemed to me like the “perfect” evidence that “proved” it had to be a ghost (the door was locked so it had to be someone inside), ignoring the fact that several hours must have passed since Linda locked the door. Anyone could have unlocked the door, perhaps even when the black cloth was placed on the outside.

Anyway, sorry for the longwinded explanation. Those are just my thoughts on this episode.

bullerspoke @ 5:32 am

In fact I was eating when the episode started up. I didn't choke but chewing came to a grinding halt while I shook my head in disbelief of the poor acting in that first segment. I wish they would cease with those segments. It's embarrasing and really, the dramaturgical finesse of it is limited. There are other ways to get the episode started.

On a similar note, I found some places where I suspect re-enactment. However this does not in any way deflate the show or TAPS honesty, after all it is tv, and certain requirements must be meet tp make airable tv. One glaring instance of re-enactment, in my opinion, is the footage showing the host lock the door, the zoom and chosen angle of the camera is unnnatural for someone filming the host going around locking doors and furthermost why would they film it it at all. It's all to convenient and perfect. It bears the mark of dramatic re-enactment. But, and this is important, it does not in any way disprove the fact that the doors were locked and were unlocked. But what we viewers are getting is a dramatized re-enactment of the premise that the host locked the doors. Which is ok, since it is Pilgrim footage and it adds some drama to the segment.

Other than that, one disappointing thing was, as has been noted, the fact that no camera was put up in the attic or used by J & G when they peeked in there. Loads of activity and their first instinct ought to be to reach for a camera and a recorder, but no, they proceed telling us what happens and not showing us. And I don't want stories, I want cold, hard evidence. Bad call, J & G.

As for the K2-meter going wacky, that is just to inconclusive. And lord knows what sets that thing of, it seems to require very little input from what I have seen. And actually the fields behaviour is consistent with that of a cellphone or other microwaves, all manmade fields.

I was not to impressed with the episode overall, and really the door just didin't get me going. It was possible to unlock from within, which might have been done unintentionally by someone. And the shaking/opening? Well, winds, drafts and suction can't be ruled out especially since the trap-door to the attic was open. I have seen doors open and close and behaving strangely a number of times. And especially front or back doors, doors on the outside, are prey for many forces of nature.

But then we have the EVP. In definite form. Very intriguing and rather unambigous. There is no question what it is saying: Leave me alone.

It is one of the best EVP's I have heard ever and it really intrigues me. Now, EVP's are dubious in themselves, there are just to many variables that can influence the recording, and furthermost GH does not use any protocol to control those variables. It can't really be used to support any claim, or really be called evidence of anything at all. But it is one piece of information that warrants the endevour of investigating claims of paranormal phenomena. It really peaked my interest, which has been badly hammered by GH och GHI lately. Sloppy investigations, a strong commercial influence and straying away from the so-called scientific approach. And really nothing tangible caught for quite a awhile.

I mean, what I want from TAPS and others are something unexplainable that warrants investigation and an explanation. It is the unexplainable and the process of figuring it out or not that really keeps me as a skeptic going. Things that can be readily explained are rather boring, but when there is the possibility of science coming short, I am all over it. Now, I don't want to overstate the EVP, they are dubious in nature, but it did got me going.

Addendum: I really found Dave Tango's cursing rather silly and actually disrespctful to the clients. It really served no purpose other than comic relief for the show and that can be obtained in other ways. Had I been the client, I'd find that unprofessional. And the EVP's really did not have any connection to his cursing, as far as I can make out, but came before he went all Denis Leary. As usual, provoking or cursing does not provide more EVP's. They should have learned that ny now, one thinks, but I guess it makes for good tv. That said, I have no problem with cursing on tv, and in my country these are thankfully not bleeped, but this was just silly and served no purpose.

ninjakitty @ 6:42 am

Did anyone else notice that as they were leaving the basement during the tour/interview the client said "let's go lock the doors and get started" or something to that effect? I noticed it as she said it, and thought it was odd that she would say "let's lock the doors," something that I've never seen or heard any previous GH client say in that interview section of the show. I remember thinking "weird, do they always lock the doors?" THEN when the door was opened by ye olde spirit later in the investigation, it seemed like the "let's lock the doors" line had been faked foreshadowing.

The EVP really was too perfect – I don't really buy the EVPs anyway, it just seems like there's so much possible interference. Same with the k2 meters. It's really the videos of activity that are the best.

CrowTRobot @ 7:30 am

Another great recap, Logisti. This was a much better episode than I've seen in a while. However:

The door: Honestly, to me it just sounded like someone 'tried' to open it. I'd guess someone outside (saw the TAPS vans?) and tried to get in. Found it locked, then left.

The K2 Meter: (rolly eyes) Whatever…

Tango's cussing: Juvenile, disrespectful, embarrassing. Only the shots of all the TAPS members laughing like little kids was …. (can't find my thesaurus) …. sillier.

EVPS: Interesting. Verrrry interesting.

The attic with Jason & Grant: Extremely dissapointing, although not really surprising anymore…"Hey, there are footsteps up in the attic, let's investigate; but let's not take a camera." Grant claims to nearly get run over by a spirit ("Dude, Duck" caps available on line.) so Jason goes up, but no camera. Inexcusable.

EDIT: Mrs Robot noticed that Jason has been working out. Dropped some pounds and buffed up a bit. Oh. And no spider attacks on Steve this week – nice change. However, from the look of next week's previews, they return.

Handsty @ 8:46 am

I agree with many/most of all your theories and observations. Jef commented on the crack of the neck. I forgot about that! That was great. I wonder if Tango got that from "Fight Club". That one scene where Brad/Tyler is at the top of stairs and cricks his neck.

I hope Tango never gives up his red & white headphones.

I was kind of "satisfied" with his episode after having to put up with the last few weak weeks of GHI. But now you all have me thinking that I was ripped off.

Still think Grant is sexy as all hell.

Croooooowwwwww…….movie sign.

Wes @ 8:47 am

Great recaps by all and not much to add, except as another Polish speaker (what are the odds) I agree the EVP didn't sound Polish to me at all. An immediate first reaction to the door was that someone (TAPS member, film crew, museum staff, passer-by) pulled it open, saw the camera crew and quickly ducked back out … sorta like the guy who walked in front of the FLIR at the old fort. With TV and TAPS crews setting up, museum folks giving tours and getting interviewed and the general running around involved to get things ready, a door getting unlocked for easy access to a building is not hard to beleive.

Still, this episode delivered a lot more fodder than most and was a nice change from GHI …

Yeti33 @ 9:05 am

Tango was great in this episode. I especially liked it when he said "hear comes Jersey". To me it looked like you could actually see the door close from left to right. You can see for a brief moment the glass reflect from the camera as it is closing. You would have to be very fast and small for no on to see you. Kris never sees anything, so for her to say she say a figure adds some credibility to it.

As far as the thumping noises in the attic. You can actually here them from Pilgrims camera's before they look in the ceiling. I know Grant has probably pulled some things in the past but I honestly think he was scared this time.

The "Leave me alone" EVP was the best ones that I have heard from these guys in a long time. Tango's face was classic when he heard the voice. I bet he was scared sh*tless when he realized the voice came from right beside him.

I hope most of this years episodes are like this one. I know they all won't be but what a way to start the new season.

Patrick @ 9:42 am

Brandon, you are dead on with your analysis of the door. The door was unlocked by someone prior to filming, and then someone from the outside moved the black curtain and opened/shut the door.

I initially got chills on the "Leave me alone" EVP, but the more I think about it, the more it seems this episode was mostly staged. Why didn't they keep a camera in the attic when everything started to happen? Why did they actually mention "locking the doors and turning out the lights" in the beginning?

I will say this on the convenient footage of the door being locked, they do that alot during "lights out", filming everyone turning off lights, etc. So if locking the doors was a priority, they would have filmed that too.

Yeti33 @ 9:57 am

What is it going to take for you guys to believe that there may be things out there that we can't explain? Week after week I read these posts and you continue to rip them apart. By no means am I a GH backer, and I believe that Grant has done some shady things in the past. Are we taking this show too serious?

I'm not trying to piss anyone off here. All I am trying to say is that there has to be paranormal things going on out there, or is everyone in on the greates hoax in the history of man kind?

Handsty @ 10:05 am

One other thing: Did anyone notice the look on Grant's face when Jason made him get up out of that chair?

Leslie @ 10:29 am

I was a bit surprised that all of the other TAPS members were able to here Tango's curse fest. I didn't think that they left their walkie-talkies open like that to here the others. That leaves me to wonder about the origin of their EVPS. I would think that it would be possible to record something that was being transmitted through the walkie-talkies, either by accident, or, on purpose.

windwhisperer @ 11:17 am

I thought the very same thing when the lady said she "got a feeling of children in the room". How do you get a feeling of children in a room?
I think the lady that owned the museum wanted it to be haunted.

Was the "angry" man in the basement doing something to let them believe he was angry or mean?

Regarding the opening door behind Krysten, I had a rather skeptical thought that the owner unlocked the door from the outside. Just opened and closed it. If the door could be locked from the inside doesn't it stand to reason that you could use a key on the outside to open it? They didn't instantly run to the door when they heard it. So is it possible that someone could have opened and closed it quickly and zipped around the corner. There wasn't a camera outside the door.
The glint of light on the door looked like a reflection from a light fixture.
I don't know. There was something not right about the whole thing. But, just my opinion.

windwhisperer @ 11:18 am

Handsty, it was like "Oh man, I gotta get up."

J. @ 11:42 am

Yeti33: There are things out there we can't explain.

If you read Logisti's Paranormal State: Family Ties post, he says he is stumped.

What we have to ask ourselves is anything paranormal happening on this show and others.

If you can think of a logical explanation for alleged paranormal activity, then go with the simpler and natural explanation. Too many people jump to the conclusion that something is paranormal without the slightest bit of critical thought.

As far as other paranormal stuff happening outside of these shows, who knows. We can't analyze and discuss it if we don't know about it. But if we do, then we have to look at it case by case, then come to a conclusion and determine if it is paranormal or not. We can't say that because one place does have paranormal activity that all the rest that are reported to also has some activity. Again, we have to take it case by case.

bullerspoke @ 11:54 am

Yeti33: You pull out the oldest argument in the book: since so many believe it to be true it must be true. Argumentum ad populum, in fancy latin. Well, a lot of people believed the earth was flat once… However, that argument does not make anything true or false, in fact, it says nothing at all about the phenomena itself.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I find the natural world a wondrous place where there are many phenomena that is simply put, breathtaking. I do not need to add a layer of metaphysics to make the world more exciting. I mean, just the study of man and our interactions is a subject for a lifetime.

Despite that, or rather because of that, I personally entertain the possibility of paranormal phenomena, to do anything else would be intellectually dishonest. However I have not yet seen any evidence or even a credible theory that proves or makes possible such phenomena. Therefor it remains a possiblity for me, but nothing more. Same things are unexplainable, yes, some things are anomolous, yes, but paranormal, now that's a completely different ballgame.

Because, and this is where I find the biggest fault of the believers, they do an assumption out of thin air, based on prejudice and misconception and lack of will to understand, that anomolies or unexplained phenomena, by nature I presume, are inherently paranormal. That is false reasoning and what you end up with is an assumption, a guess without any basis. Because you suddenly interject a cultural and social phenomena, like say the belief in afterlife and ghosts, and use that as basis for drawing conclusions of the physical world. Bad science and in fact bad thinking.

Yes, there are unexplained phenomena but that in itself does not imply the existence of paranormal phenomena because that requires that that variable is added to the explanation or hypothesis and we have no basis for that. Then we enter the realm of belief. Belief and religion has it's value, but should stay in it's own court, because it does not belong in science. Mixing them leads to bad science and a confusion of the matters and leaves us with even fewer answers. And I want to know, yes, know not believe.

I also wish to add that it is hard to believe in ghosts when they are so laded with cultural bias and in so many ways seems to correspond to and be representations of our psyhological needs and wants. And fears.




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